Roby Brock is a media executive and journalist in Little Rock, AR. Graduating from Hendrix College in 1988, Brock developed a taste for political analysis and commentary. He cut his chops working on Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential campaign and developing legislative strategy for Arkansas' Governor Jim Guy Tucker. His experience has left him one of (if not the) most influential figures in Arkansas political journalism.
Launched in 1999, Roby is the founder and host of Talk Business & Politics, CEO of the parent company Natural State Media, and in 2015 brokered a deal for the merger of several northwest publications to create The Northwest Arkansas Business Journal.
On their website they succinctly describe their operations. They write: “With bureaus in Northwest Arkansas, Fort Smith, Jonesboro, Little Rock, and Central Arkansas, Talk Business & Politics interviews business and political decision-makers who are shaping the Arkansas news landscape, reports on key industry trends and topics, and provides extensive political and capitol news coverage.”
You can hardly turn on local news without seeing one of Roby’s interviews or hearing his comments on all subjects of affairs. It is obvious he has a ferocious appetite for politics and that he does his homework, which may be why, in the ever changing “News” business, Roby’s enterprises have stayed successful and relevant for decades.
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[0:00:08] GM: Welcome to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. A production of flagandbanner.com. Through storytelling, conversational interviews and Kerry's natural curiosity, this weekly radio show and podcast offers listeners an insider's view into the commonalities of entrepreneurs, athletes, medical professionals, politicians and other successful people. All sharing their stories of success and the ups and downs of risk-taking. Connect with Kerry through her candid, funny, informative and always encouraging weekly blog. And now it's time for Kerry McCoy to get all up in your business.
[0:00:41] KM: Thank you, son, Gray. How fun to be switching roles and sitting across the table with one of Little Rock's own journalist reporter, entrepreneur and prominent pundit known for his insightful commentary on political and economical issues, Mr. Roby Brock.
Launched in 1999, Roby is the founder and host of Talk Business & Politics, CEO of the parent company Natural State Media. And in 2015, brokered a deal for the merger of several northwest publications to create the Northwest Arkansas Business Journal.
On their website, they succinctly describe their operations. They write, "With bureaus in Northwest Arkansas, Fort Smith, Jonesboro, Little Rock and Central Arkansas, Talk Business & Politics interviews business and political decision-makers who are shaping the Arkansas news landscape. Reports on key industry trends and topics and provides extensive political and capital news coverage." So true.
You can hardly turn on the local news without seeing one of Roby's interviews or hearing his comments on all subjects of affairs. It is obvious he has a ferocious appetite for politics and that he does his homework, which maybe why in the everchanging news business, Roby's businesses have stayed successful and relevant for decades.
It is with great pleasure I welcome to the table the well-read, well-versed media executive, entrepreneur, reporter, premier pundit Mr. Roby Brock.
[0:02:17] RB: Thank you for having me, Kerry, and, son, Gray. Is that his full name? Son Gray? Or is it just Gray?
[0:02:23] GM: It's becoming that way. Yes.
[0:02:27] RB: It's good. Thanks for having me.
[0:02:28] KM: You're welcome. To our listeners, I want to tell a little bit about you. You do so much stuff. I really am shocked at how much stuff you do. And to tell our listeners a little bit about your background, how you got into politics and why you're qualified to do what you do.
[0:02:42] RB: Yeah. I'm omnipresent is the word that you're looking for right there. Omnipresent. He's everywhere.
[0:02:50] KM: You are everywhere. I should have put that in your description. Omnipresent, Roby Brock.
[0:02:56] RB: You got to leave me something to say. You got to leave me something to say. Actually, I'm going to turn the tables. I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions today.
[0:03:03] KM: That's because you're an interviewer by trade. And it's not going to work.
[0:03:05] RB: In your introduction, you guys talked about listening more to learn. And so, what's wrong with me listening and learning? Because that's what I do for a living. That's all right. Isn't it?
[0:03:16] KM: I don't know. Okay. You went to Hendrix College. Beat you to it. You went to Hendrix College. What did you major in?
[0:03:22] RB: I'm an English major.
[0:03:24] KM: You know, I think that is a great major that people discount way too much. You can read about anything and learn about anything if you're an English major.
[0:03:32] RB: Yeah. Hendrix has a liberal arts curriculum. So, you don't get a lot of deep specialty in something. You wouldn't be like a – if you were a business and economic major, which I was for almost three years, you wouldn't get like an agricultural finance degree from Hendrix. You would just get a broad business and economics degree. But you'd also take a bunch of other courses throughout all of that to become more well-rounded about a bunch of different things. I know a lot about a lot of things, but I'm probably not an expert in much of anything sort of thing.
[0:04:04] KM: That's what's good about liberal arts. You're well-rounded.
[0:04:05] RB: Yes. No. It teaches you critical thinking. It was a business major for three years. I took Cost Accounting and Shakespeare in the same trimester. We had trimesters back then at Hendrix. And my father was a CPA and I had to go tell him that I really liked Hamlet better than last-in, first-out accounting, you know? And he said, "I'll make you this deal." He said, "If you take intermediate accounting, you can go major in anything else that you want to do." I probably would have minored in business and economics because I took enough of those classes. But Hendrix –
[0:04:41] KM: But I thought you said you're an English major?
[0:04:42] RB: Well, Hendrix didn't do minors back then. Yeah. I took English from there on out. And I'd had a few English courses already. But I did that for kind of the oral and written communication skills that you learn from reading and writing and presenting and stuff like that. And now, ironically, I talk business. I talk business.
[0:05:04] KM: Your dad's so proud.
[0:05:04] RB: And I got that background in English and business.
[0:05:09] KM: What would Little Rock do without you?
[0:05:11] RB: It probably be just fine.
[0:05:13] KM: No. No. Really and truly. There's nobody like you in Little Rock, Arkansas.
[0:05:16] RB: Just another layer of news to report and interviews to cover. But, I mean, I'm not saying somebody else would step in and do what I did. But I think that we find new sources wherever we can find them. And I kind of created one out of thin air almost 25 years ago.
[0:05:33] KM: And your appetite was ignited, let's say, because you worked on the Bill Clinton campaign, on Bill Clinton's campaign.
[0:05:43] RB: That was my first paid political job. Yeah. Everybody that will recall the election night of 1992 when Bill Clinton came out on the Old State House lawn with all the flags and all the – I was the coordinator of all of the streets of Little Rock for that event. That was what I got hired to do in that campaign.
[0:06:03] KM: Well, then I've got a gripe with you. Because I was stuck at 2nd and –
[0:06:07] RB: Trust me. I'm just glad nobody got trampled that night. The crowd was obviously bigger than we thought. We had to plan for 230 satellite trucks from all over the world. We had to – you had to have the – for the reporters, and the cable TV and all that at the time.
[0:06:24] KM: How did you end up with a job like that? You're an English major.
[0:06:27] RB: When I graduated from Hendrix, I spent a year traveling overseas. I lived in London for several months and traveled around the continent for a little bit. Because I never got to do that in college because I was really active with soccer and student government. And so, I never got to go on the exchange programs a lot of students did.
And I was like I'm going to sell my car and I'm going to go live abroad, which my father supported and my mother supported me doing that. But I literally lived in Europe on $25 a day.
[0:07:01] KM: You can't do that anymore. Can you?
[0:07:03] RB: I had to do it when I was young. If I didn't do it when I was young, I knew I would never take the time off of my life to go.
[0:07:10] KM: And I don't think you could even – young people could do it very well today. Could they?
[0:07:13] RB: Not on $25 a day.
[0:07:15] KM: Well, but I mean, could you backpack across Europe? Because that was kind of a standard thing. You could backpack. You could ride a train.
[0:07:20] GM: Yes. The law still allows you to do. Yes.
[0:07:24] RB: But it was a great learning experience. Because you got to see so many different parts of the world. The things that you've been studying. I wanted to see those things firsthand. I met so many people. I still have contacts from Germany and London and places that I traveled. And that was before you had Facebook and email and all that stuff. It was hard to keep up relationships.
But I came back and went to work for an accounting firm ironically. But I was a marketing person for the accounting firm. I spoke the language, but I did things with my English degree.
One of the partners in that firm was hired by the Clinton for president campaign. Her name is Barbara Yates. You probably know Barbara.
[0:08:00] KM: Yeah.
[0:08:01] RB: And she asked me – I'd left the accounting firm and started a restaurant here in Little Rock where local Luna is now. It was called Shoot the Bull. We probably threw you out a few times, Kerry.
[0:08:12] KM: Probably. Where is it? Local Luna. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[0:08:16] RB: Yeah. Down in the Riverdale area. Down there. And she came in for lunch one day and she's like, "What are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I started and managed this place with a friend." And she said, "I might have something you'd be interested in." And I was ready to move on at that point. And she said, "I need somebody to help for this watch night party in downtown Little Rock." And so, I went over there. And two weeks later was put to work for about eight weeks putting that whole party together.
[0:08:44] KM: And you got the bug.
[0:08:45] RB: Yeah. Well, I was around a lot of people in the campaign. You know, James Carville and George Stephanopoulos. They were all political – you would see them every day. You could go to the war room where they would have these end-of-the-day meetings and they would talk about what was on the news. They would watch the 5:00 news, the national newscast. And they would report, "This was our message. You see how clearly it got through." I mean, it was a little bit simpler day and age back then for political reporting. And I'd hear them give their speeches. Yeah. I mean, it was a little bit intoxicating to do all of that.
But I also noticed that everybody that was working on that campaign wanted to go to the White House. They wanted to be in Washington, D.C. after the campaign was over. And since I had been gone for a little bit of time right after college, and I was just so young in my career. I was in my early 20s. And I knew that the only job I might get in Washington, D.C. would be the mail room at the White House getting about $12,000 a year, which didn't sound like that much fun to me. I'm like, "No."
But all these people are leaving and there'll be a whole lot of vacancies of places here in Arkansas. That night of the watch night party, I had Secret Service access. Because I've been working with them on the planning of everything. And I'm on one of the porches right outside the old state house and I see Lieutenant Governor Jim Guy Tucker who I know is going to become the next governor. And he's lost in that big, massive crowd. I was like, "He's supposed to be at that VIP reception over there at the bottom of the Excelsior Hotel in the State House Convention Center. The Excelsior. Throwback.
[0:10:23] KM: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[0:10:24] RB: And he was over where the Camelot was, which is now the Double Tree. And the crowd was packed. And I was like, "He's not getting through."
I went down there from my Secret Service perch and I introduced myself. I didn't know him. And I said, "You're supposed to be way over there." And he goes, "Yeah. I know." I said, "Who's with your party?" It was four of them. I said, "Y'all lock arms and I'm going to get you where you need to go."
And I went through the different checkpoints and got him to the – right before the last checkpoint when he was going in the building, he said, "Now, what was your name again?" And I said, "It's Roby Brock. And in two weeks, when I finish cleaning up this mess, I'm going to come ask you for a job at the Capitol." Because I knew he was going to be governor." And I said, "I need you to remember my name." And he said, "I will." And I went up there two weeks later and he said, "Come on board."
[0:11:10] KM: Lucky people make their own luck. Don't they?
[0:11:12] RB: Yeah. Yeah. That's hard work. But that was lucky seeing him and realizing he was lost, you know?
[0:11:16] KM: No. A lot of people would have seen him lost and not gone down there and done anything about it.
[0:11:21] RB: Right.
[0:11:21] KM: You know, a lot of people, "Oh, he's lost. Yeah, he sure is." You were proactive about it.
[0:11:26] RB: Well, I was thinking, he's going to be the next governor. I mean, somebody should be taking care of him.
[0:11:31] KM: Well, some people go, "Oh, look. There's the next governor. He can't get through."
[0:11:35] GM: The next step thought.
[0:11:37] KM: Yeah, the next step. The critical thinking.
[0:11:39] RB: Yeah. But that got me into politics though. And that was a great learning experience.
[0:11:42] KM: How did you end up go – you even ran for a seat one time. Didn't you?
[0:11:45] RB: I did. I ran for the state senate. '96.
[0:11:48] KM: How terrible was that?
[0:11:49] RB: Well, I loved the experience. It was fun.
[0:11:52] KM: But you didn't get elected.
[0:11:53] RB: No. Vic Snyder was in the middle of a four-year state senate term and he got elected to Congress. And I ran for his open seat. They had to fill out the remaining two years.
[0:12:05] KM: So, who won?
[0:12:06] RB: Phil Wyrick. B.J. Wyrick's husband. He was a sitting state representative. And he wound up winning.
[0:12:11] KM: Where is Vic Snyder these days?
[0:12:13] RB: He works at Blue Cross Blue Shield.
[0:12:15] KM: Oh, still.
[0:12:15] RB: Yeah. He's the medical director there. But that election was a six-week campaign from after the November election until early January. We had to campaign through Thanksgiving, Christmas and 10-degree weather. And that was really miserable. But I still have friendships from that race.
[0:12:38] KM: You'd do it again.
[0:12:40] RB: In a heartbeat. Yeah. And it was just a lot of fun meeting people. And I was young. Younger than – I was 30. You can do a lot more when you're 30 than when you're –
[0:12:50] KM: I don't know. I think I work a lot smarter. I don't know. I think I work smarter and more effectively now.
[0:12:56] RB: Yeah.
[0:12:57] KM: How did Talk Business & Politics come about? What year? You started it in 1999. All this other stuff we're talking about is about that same time, isn't it?
[0:13:06] RB: Yeah. I think I ran for the senate seat in '96. I had worked for Jim Guy Tucker prior to running for that senate seat. Yeah. We're standing chronological order –
[0:13:16] KM: We sure – when does Talk Business & Politics come?
[0:13:19] RB: I started a video production company with a couple that wound up moving out of town. And –
[0:13:23] KM: Who?
[0:13:24] RB: Stacy and Sam DeWitt. I don't know. Do you remember Britt and Sam's Cookies?
[0:13:28] KM: Yeah.
[0:13:29] RB: The Sam. Britt and Sam's?
[0:13:29] KM: Yeah. And he went off to do a radio show in Atlanta.
[0:13:32] RB: They did. It was a TV series. Don't start that. That was my concept.
[0:13:35] KM: Gosh. Little Rock is small. All right. It's why I love it though.
[0:13:40] RB: We had this video production company and we were turning down some business because we were producing a news segment that was about kids and issues affecting kids. And we just couldn't do any outside business because the time constraints for doing this news segment three times a week was a big, heavy lift.
And we were doing enough to have some critical mass, but we weren't really making any money. And we had to move to a bigger market to make that happen. I decided I didn't want to move to Atlanta. Stacy, Sam's wife, who was really talented in video production, she had been in the news business. She was from Atlanta. And their kids were really young. It was a good time for them to make that move. He had cashed out of Brent and Sams.
I decided to stay here and reform a video production company and take some of the business that we were turning down. It had gotten more affordable to do video production back then. It used to have about a million dollar to get into the business. And I think I financed $75,000 worth of equipment, which I could probably do for $15,000 today.
[0:14:45] KM: Or five.
[0:14:47] RB: Yes. But that's changed a lot. But that was big back then. Even digital editing. Nonlinear editing was just coming on board about that time. But what I found when we started that video production company was you can't handle very much business because you're small. I might have four clients a month that I'm doing commercial commercials or small video projects for.
And two of them tell you, "Well, we've got to postpone or push off a couple of months." Or, "Hey, we're only going to be able to do half of what we did." I think two months into it, I had contracted but had suspended 50% of my business. And I was like, "I'm going to have 50% less revenue than I thought I was going to have."
[0:15:33] KM: Thought. That you had planned on. Yes.
[0:15:34] RB: Yes. And so, I was like, "I'm going to have to find another business model to help supplement this. I can still do the video production work." But that's when I had the idea. I had had some background in business. I'd had some background in politics. I was like, "I've got a video production. I can do a TV show on business and politics. Nobody's doing that." And I knew how paid programming worked. You sell the ads. You buy the airtime. You make a profit off of the difference. I said, "I think I can make that work." And I sold a couple of sponsors on it pretty early on and I was like, "That will generate."
[0:16:07] KM: What TV station were you on?
[0:16:10] RB: I started on KKYK. It was a low-power TV station.
[0:16:15] GM: I remember that.
[0:16:16] KM: You do?
[0:16:16] GM: They did after-school programming that I remember. Yeah.
[0:16:21] RB: And then Chuck Sphon, the manager of Fox 16 had seen my program and said, "I would love for you to move to FOX 16." They didn't even have a news back then.
[0:16:32] KM: Did you become an employee of FOX 16? or you're just a freelance person who sells –
[0:16:35] RB: I just bought the paid program slot from them.
[0:16:40] KM: You bought that and then you sold sponsors.
[0:16:41] RB: Yes. for that. And that's how Talk Business & Politics got started. And it's grown. I mean, trust me. It evolved from one TV show in Little Rock to a statewide TV show and two other markets. And then all the public radio stations started picking me up because I had interesting interviews. And they could use the audio portion of it. I'm just repurposing existing material. But I can put new sponsors over that.
[0:17:05] KM: How many employees you have now?
[0:17:07] RB: 16.
[0:17:09] KM: You ended up recently really, not too long ago, starting the Natural State Media, which is now a parent company. An umbrella over all these little side gigs you have. How many businesses do you have, Roby Brock?
[0:17:23] RB: That's getting up in my business there. But I'll tell you. Let me clarify a little bit for Natural State media. Talk Business & Politics was doing its thing out of Central Arkansas. And we were in Northwest Arkansas and in Jonesboro. And there was a startup internet media company that a good friend of mine named Michael Tilly ran out of Fort Smith called the Citywire.
And we started talking. We were content partners. We'd share stuff back and forth. But we started talking about merging our two companies together. It just made some sense. Because we were working so closely together anyway. And there were some financial benefits for doing it.
We wound up merging those two media companies and forming Natural State Media as the parent company. And we rebranded everything as Talk Business & Politics. But about 6 months into that merger, we got the opportunity to acquire the Northwest Arkansas Business Journal. And –
[0:18:19] KM: And that's a publication, right?
[0:18:21] RB: Yeah. It was just a publication.
[0:18:23] KM: Now it's more.
[0:18:26] RB: But anyhow. It was doable financially. It was a big lift. But I thought both of us from Talk Business & Politics and the Citywire had been competing in Northwest Arkansas. This was a chance to kind of consolidate all of that and really probably put ourselves about 10 or 20 years ahead of where we would have been in the market up there by acquiring the Northwest Arkansas Business Journal.
We did that deal about six months into our merger and just brought it all under one umbrella bu. But they were just a print publication. They had a website that updated once a week and it was behind a paywall. And so, we took all of that out. We started a radio show up there. We added them –
[0:19:06] KM: Who does that?
[0:19:06] RB: We do it.
[0:19:08] KM: You send your – you do it down here and –
[0:19:10] RB: Well, I've got some guys in Northwest Arkansas that do it on location.
[0:19:13] KM: Where do you get all your information? When I go to your website and I look at your website, there's somebody posting every couple of hours.
[0:19:20] RB: Yeah.
[0:19:21] KM: Who's doing all that? With just 16 employees.
[0:19:23] RB: Well, that's a lot of employees gathering news.
[0:19:26] GM: Yeah. Right? It's like everybody in this building right now.
[0:19:28] RB: Yeah. I've got three on-the-ground reporters in Northwest Arkansas. I've got two in Fort Smith. I've got one in Jonesboro. And then there's myself and a freelancer here in Central Arkansas. We've got a lot of people –
[0:19:42] KM: How many are freelancing and how many are on payroll?
[0:19:44] RB: I've got one freelancer.
[0:19:45] KM: All those other people are on payroll.
[0:19:46] RB: Yeah.
[0:19:48] KM: Wow. Who's out there selling – I hope you've got somebody selling ads.
[0:19:51] RB: I have two people that sell ads. And I sell too. I mean, I'm a pretty good salesman.
[0:19:56] KM: Describe your day. And then we're going to take a break.
[0:20:00] RB: I do two things every day. I solve problems and I probably write and read a whole lot. But, I mean, if I had to boil it down, everything that I do is in that vein.
[0:20:14] KM: How much do you write a day you think?
[0:20:16] RB: I mean. I don't know. Pages, or words, or – I probably help – well, I write and I edit. I've got some people submit stuff to me for me to edit and then post. And then some people – I've got some other people that can do that too. And I write some too. And then I take interviews –
[0:20:33] KM: Do you keep a notepad by your bed at night and wake up in the middle of the night and write stuff down?
[0:20:37] RB: No. But that is how I get things out of my head. I probably just put it in my phone next to my bed. But I have gotten up and written stuff down before. Because then I can go back to sleep. If I don't, I can't go back to sleep. I sit there and lay in bed and think about –
[0:20:51] KM: You hear that, listeners? That's a tip from the psychiatrist, Roby Brock. Get it out. And it works like a charm.
[0:20:59] RB: And then you can find it the next morning.
[0:21:01] KM: And then you can find it the next morning. All right. This is a great place to take a break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation with Mr. Roby Brock. Founder and host of Talk Business & Politics.
Still to come, we'll get his opinion on the current political climate in Arkansas. Talk about issues facing not just Arkansas, but many states. The health crisis, education, crime. And you know me, if we have time, we're going to have a little game to play at the end of the segment. We'll be right back.
[0:21:25] GM: You're listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. A production of flagandbanner.com. Over 40 years ago with only $400, Kerry founded Arkansas Flag & Banner. During the last four decades, the business has grown and changed along with Kerry's experience and leadership knowledge.
In 1995, she embraced the internet and rebranded her company as simply flagandbanner.com. In 2004, she became an early blogger. Since then, she has founded the nonprofit Friends of Dreamland Ballroom. Began publishing her magazine, Brave. And in 2016, branched out into this very radio show, YouTube channel and podcast.
In 2020, Kerry McCoy Enterprises acquired ourcornermarket.com. An online company specializing in American-made plaques, signage and memorials for over 20 years. And in 2021, opened a satellite office in Miami, Florida. Telling American-made stories, selling American-made flags, the flagandbanner.com. Back to you, Kerry.
[0:22:22] KM: Thanks, gray. We're speaking today with Mr. Roby Brock. Host of Talk Business & Politics. Roby is a journalist, a reporter, an entrepreneur, a prominent pundit for the capital city and the state of Arkansas. How many businesses do you have now?
[0:22:38] RB: I would say three. The media company –
[0:22:42] KM: Has how many underneath it though?
[0:22:45] RB: Well, I just group it all into one.
[0:22:47] KM: Okay. The media company, which is a lot. And then the event center. And what's the other one?
[0:22:53] RB: Our Market at Chenal, which is an outdoor market and festival that we do several times a year.
[0:22:59] KM: You have to stay centric when you're doing interviews. But I know you're not. I know you've got to have opinions. How do you manage to stay like that?
[0:23:07] RB: Well, I'm just looking for the honest answers from these people. I can kind of smell BS when it's getting displayed out there. I think this has been part of my attitude too. You don't have to be a jerk when you're asking questions of elected officials. A lot of people want me to be mean. Whether it's a Democrat or a Republican. They're like, "You not very – beat them up."
[0:23:32] KM: You did get in a dust-up with Mike Huckabee.
[0:23:35] RB: I did.
[0:23:35] KM: Governor Mike Huckabee. You did say something. Tell our listeners.
[0:23:40] RB: Well, I think I was speaking to a group of young Democrats who obviously were not in favor of Mike Huckabee. And I said – I'm trying to think what the exact quote was. You may have it in front of you. I don't remember.
[0:23:53] KM: I should have written it down. Something about we can't take four more years.
[0:23:57] RB: If you can't stand him, do something about it sort of thing. Anyhow. It was on page 10B of a newspaper or something on a Sunday. And somehow, he got hold of it. I mean, well, it was in the paper. I was quoted. But I was really just trying to inspire that room to do something about –
[0:24:16] KM: And he went after you.
[0:24:18] RB: He did. Yeah.
[0:24:20] KM: And you had to hire a lawyer.
[0:24:22] RB: I did.
[0:24:23] KM: Chip Welch, who is running for office.
[0:24:24] RB: The honorable, Judge Chip Welch.
[0:24:27] KM: The honorable, Chip Welch, who's running for –
[0:24:28] RB: Yeah. Basically, the crux of it was I had just started a new TV show with AETN that was just focused on business. They had picked me up to do some stuff for them on a monthly basis. And people around Governor Mike Huckabee on his staff started pressuring some of my advertisers to pull their funding. Because I'd made this one slightly derogatory comment about him.
[0:24:52] KM: Off the cuff.
[0:24:53] RB: Yes. That had got quoted in the paper. And so, I had all these advertisers calling me and they're like, "What did you do to the governor?" I was like, "I don't know." And they're like, "Well, they're asking if we support you because of what you said."
Anyhow. It turns out that the AETN called me and said, "Well, we're going to have to pull your TV show." And I was like, "We have a contract. Why are you pulling my TV show?" And they're like, "Well, you said something about Mike Huckabee." And I go, "Have you ever heard of the right of free speech?" And they were like, "Yeah. But we can't have you on our airwaves if you're going to say something about the –" which I didn't say anything about the governor on the TV show. I was speaking to a group that got quoted in the paper. I said, "I'd want to need that in writing from you." And they sent me a letter that said, "We're terminating your contract because you said something derogatory about Mike Huckabee." And I was like, "You can't do that."
We wound up suing. The governor had to come testify. So did some other people. It was a long time ago.
[0:25:52] KM: It was a long time ago.
[0:25:53] RB: I've had him on the show since then. He and I have done some roast and toast together. I mean, if I see him out at the grocery store, at the Governor's Mansion, or reception, we talk. I mean, bygones be bygones. I'm not mad about it.
[0:26:05] KM: Absolutely. Life is long. Welch said this, "It's unfortunate that our governor has a history of retribution against ordinary folks who are perceived as enemies." Do you think that's still going on?
[0:26:19] RB: That what's still going on?
[0:26:20] KM: That people still – if you have opposing views, you're perceived as an enemy.
[0:26:25] RB: I think that's a lot of the rhetoric that we see in this day and age. I just think people kind of go ballistic on everything.
[0:26:32] KM: Of all the people you've interviewed in your career, who intimidated you the most?
[0:26:36] RB: I'll tell you two interviews that I found the most fascinating while I'm thinking about who I might have been star-struck by. General Wesley Clark. Fascinating interview. He's interesting to talk to because he's really precise in how he communicates. And I've gone back and I'll usually get transcripts of a lot of our interviews. Because I turn those for stories on the website.
And what he said in the oral part of our interview was just as crystal clear on paper. I mean, it's just logical and made – it was like somebody had written a paper explaining a position on something. But he was also fascinating to listen to and engaging to listen to.
And sometimes people are great to listen to and it just sounds terrible when you read it on the paper. And sometimes people can write really, really well.
[0:27:28] KM: And can't talk.
[0:27:28] RB: But they can't talk. The late Governor Sid McMath. Probably one of my all-time favorite interviews. I actually sat down with him three different times. We talked about his political career, which was transcending for Arkansas. He was a military war hero. He had served in some big battles in World War II.
[0:27:51] KM: He was a Marine.
[0:27:52] RB: Bronze Star recipient. I mean, super decorated. He was just fascinating to talk to. But this is one of my favorite quotes from him. I still remember this. He told me the story of when he was governor. This is 1950. 7 years before Central High crisis. And they received the first black student application for the med school for UAMS.
And so, one of his deputies came to him and said, "We've gotten an application from a negro student to get into UAMS. What do you want us to do with it?" And Sic McMath said, "Well, are they qualified?" "Well, yeah, yeah. They passed all exams. They've got good grades." "Let them in."
And at the time, if you think about where we were as a country, that was pretty brave and courageous to not even think twice about it, you know? He had that level of fairness in him. And I asked him. I said, "Why did you decide to do that in that day and age?" Because you could have not done it and been politically popular or it wouldn't have hurt your career. This could have hurt your career. He said, "What's the point in having political capital if you're not willing to spend it?" And I was like "Wow. I love that."
[0:29:13] KM: Right.
[0:29:13] RB: And I don't think we see enough of that in politics today.
[0:29:16] KM: I think we do either.
[0:29:18] RB: People build up political capital and they want to hold on to it and save it and just let a little bit out or use it for very select purposes. He didn't poll anything. He did what was right.
[0:29:30] KM: What's the most embarrassing moment? I know you've got one. We've all got one.
[0:29:33] RB: I interviewed a US senator one time and we forgot to record – hit the record button. I had to get him back. And that was pretty embarrassing. I'm going to have to admit.
[0:29:41] KM: Is there something you're the most proud of?
[0:29:42] RB: Well, there's a lot of things I'm proud of.
[0:29:44] KM: You should be.
[0:29:44] RB: I'm proud of our company. I'm proud of how things have grown.
[0:29:48] KM: Your children. Your wife. Chenal.
[0:29:49] RB: I'm proud of all of those things. Yeah.
[0:29:51] KM: Your Chenal Festival at Little Rock.
[0:29:54] RB: Arkansas.
[0:29:54] KM: Arkansas.
[0:29:54] RB: Yeah, all of that.
[0:29:55] KM: What do you like the best about Little Rock?
[0:29:57] RB: Well I grew up here. I mean, I was born in Fayetteville, but I lived here since I was one year old. And so, I kind of know all the back roads. And I like to see the places where I grew up and ran around as a kid.
[0:30:09] KM: What do you think about our new governor wanting to make tourism a new – bring in tourism to the state?
[0:30:15] RB: That's great. I look at tourism as a potential huge boost to rural parts of Arkansas that are struggling right now. Over 50 of the 75 counties in Arkansas are losing population. How are you going to stop that from happening? You're not going to bring an automaker plant to those communities. You're not going to –
[0:30:32] KM: Is tourism going to be where they – does that going to help? Tourism is going to help that?
[0:30:35] RB: Well, here's the deal, you can't put an industrial plant anywhere in Arkansas. There's got to be the right kind of infrastructure. There's got to be access to transportation. There are all kinds of things. You can't put a manufacturing plant anywhere in Arkansas. It's got to have certain things. You can put a tourism-related industry anywhere in Arkansas. It can be a restaurant. It could be a bicycle shop. It could be a canoe rail place that could –
[0:31:01] KM: When I think of tourism, I think of more people on the Buffalo River. And I don't even want to go there anymore.
[0:31:06] RB: Well, you need to get out beyond the Buffalo. I mean, have you been up to Wilson, Arkansas and seen what's going up there?
[0:31:11] KM: The Piney? No. Where's Wilson?
[0:31:15] RB: It's this community that this gentleman has redeveloped.
[0:31:18] KM: Named Wilson?
[0:31:19] RB: Well, he bought it from the Wilson.
[0:31:20] KM: Yeah. I heard about that. Yeah.
[0:31:24] RB: It's the Gaylord guy that – Gaylord Hotels. That guy. Yeah.
[0:31:27] KM: No. Who's that?
[0:31:29] GM: He used to be big in the 70s. Right?
[0:31:32] RB: He's a big developer. Anyhow. Restaurants, bed and breakfast. All kinds of programs.
[0:31:38] KM: What's up there at Wilson, Arkansas?
[0:31:39] RB: That's what I'm saying. It's an Edwardian architecture community up there. You can shop. You can –
[0:31:45] GM: Think Eureka Springs.
[0:31:47] RB: Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of recre –
[0:31:50] KM: All right. You're kind of changing my opinion about it. Because when I hear about that, I'm like too many people on the bike trail. Too many people on the rivers. Too many people on the lakes.
[0:31:57] GM: I mean, you hear a lot of stories of, especially during COVID, people going out to national parks and crowding trails, and leaving garbage, and harassing, wildlife and getting gored by a bison and all that kind of stuff. And so, I think there is like hesitation to – I think building in tourism infrastructure is different than crowding the infrastructure you already have.
[0:32:18] RB: And I'll give you another – tourism can be about a thousand different things. I mean, let's think about Arkansas's entertainment heritage. Movies, music. We could build more festivals around all of that stuff. Have you ever been to Beatles at the Ridge up in Walnut Ridge?
[0:32:36] KM: No.
[0:32:37] RB: That's a great weekend.
[0:32:39] KM: What's it called?
[0:32:39] RB: It's called Beatles at the Ridge.
[0:32:41] KM: Is it Beatle music or –
[0:32:43] RB: Yeah. Walnut Ridge, Arkansas. When the Beatles were hitting America, their plane stopped there literally for them to get off and get on a smaller plane to go somewhere up in Missouri. But the locals found out about it. I mean, literally, that plane was there for like 11 hours or something. Ridiculous. And they have built an entire weekend music festival where they bring in a Beatles recreation band. They have all kinds of contests. They've got artwork up there. They're playing into the Delta Music Heritage that's up there. It's a fantastic event. And it's just a great – but that has boosted that community's tourism dollars. It's brought more people in for hotels. It's brought people in to eat at restaurants.
[0:33:26] KM: All right. This is a great place to take a break. We're speaking today with Mr. Roby Brock, a prominent Little Rock, Arkansas pundit with a premier statewide news business, the Natural State Media. It is the parent company of Talk Business & Politics that Roby founded in 1999. We'll be right back.
[0:33:45] TW: It's time to start thinking about saving the date. The 13th Annual Dancing in the Dreamland date. Saturday, February 17th, 2024. Dancing Into Dreamland. You know about it. It's the primary fundraiser for the Friends of Dreamland every year. That's a dedicated group of community members that are committed to revitalizing the Dreamland Ballroom in Taborian Hall, the home of Flag & Banner.
Every year, a star-studded cast of MCs and judges leads you through a diverse and compelling dance competition. In 2024, come and enjoy ballet, bolero, theatrical dance, Middle Eastern dance, cha-cha. Even a hula hoop superstar. American tango and Mexican folklorico will also be there that night all while you enjoy drinks and/or derves. And we choose your votes for your favorites.
It's a very fun evening. So, get ready. It's the return of Dancing into Dreamland. And you've got to be there. The thrilling performances are just waiting for you. Get your tickets now for Dancing Into Dreamland 2024, dreamlandballroom.org. And the date again is Saturday, February 17th, 2024.
[0:34:53] KM: We're speaking today with the statewide political pundit, Mr. Roby Brock. Host of Talk Business & Politics in Little Rock, Arkansas. Let's talk about the polarized politics of today. What are your thoughts on the role of the media and the political pundits are having in shaping the public opinion?
[0:35:11] RB: Can I come back to that? Because I'm going to forget something if I don't.
[0:35:13] KM: Okay. Tell me.
[0:35:13] RB: You asked me about the most intimidating interview.
[0:35:16] KM: Oh, yeah, yeah. I did.
[0:35:17] RB: Okay. I've thought of who that was. And I like him a lot. And he wouldn't intimidate me now. But Scott Ford. The first time I interviewed Scott Ford.
[0:35:26] KM: Scott Ford Alltel?
[0:35:26] RB: Alltel. And now Westrock Coffee. But at the time, Alltel had just sold. Remember that big 27, 28-billion-dollar deal and the headquarters was going away? And I just knew that that was going to be an interview. It was the only sit-down interview he did. And so, he'd done a press conference. But then they gave me the opportunity to sit down with him for an interview. And I knew how much that was going to be watched by how many people. And then the things that came out in that interview, which was he could finally discuss things that happened over the years in the boardroom and deals that didn't come together that would have changed the whole business landscape for Little Rock quite frankly if they had.
Alltel would have been as big as AT&T and Verizon if two deals had come together or a few years earlier that they just – it wasn't their fault that it didn't pull together. But he told that story. And I was like, "Wow."
[0:36:25] KM: I'd like to go watch that interview.
[0:36:27] RB: Yeah. I knew when he was telling me how big of news that was. And when he got done telling me the story, he goes, "I've never told anybody that publicly." I'm like, "Well, I'm well aware. I think I've just wet my pants as a matter of fact." Because I knew it'd be a huge national story."
[0:36:43] KM: Can you sum the two up? The two things?
[0:36:46] RB: It was Sprint and Nextel. Back in the day, you had all of those different phone carriers and the landscape was all – there was AT&T. Verizon was called something else before they were Verizon. And then you had – Alltel was like fifth or something like that. Sprint, Nextel. And there were some other carriers. And they all started consolidating.
And they knew – Scott Ford and his crew knew it was going to be the big two. Are we going to be one of the big two that survive all of this? And so, they tried to do a deal with Nextel that I think Sprint scooped them on. I think they tried that twice. But if that had happened, it would have catapulted Alltel to –
[0:37:29] KM: They'd have been one of the big two that was left.
[0:37:30] RB: One of the big two. And then they would have been the ones doing the other acquisitions is kind of my recollection of that conversation.
[0:37:36] KM: Well, he still came out pretty good.
[0:37:39] RB: Was not a bad day at the office.
[0:37:42] KM: But he still – like you said, it would have changed the whole landscape of Little Rock, Arkansas.
[0:37:45] RB: Yeah. Oh, for sure. I mean, we would still have those headquarters here. It would be equipment of what AT&T and Verizon have.
[0:37:51] KM: Yeah. Which is a lot of good IT jobs.
[0:37:54] RB: Your question about –
[0:37:55] KM: Polarized politics today. What is the role the media is playing it? You have some really ugly players in media today. Yes.
[0:38:06] RB: Are you referring to my guests, or me, or what?
[0:38:10] KM: No. I'm talking about –
[0:38:11] RB: Oh. You're just talking about generally speaking.
[0:38:13] KM: Yes. I mean, guys like Bill Riley who yell at people to shut up on their interviews. I was like, "Where's his mother?" You don't tell people to shut up. Didn't he learn that in grade school?
[0:38:23] RB: That lack of civility.
[0:38:24] KM: That lack of civility.
[0:38:25] RB: It frustrates me a lot. Yeah. Look, I think that at the national level, a lot of these cable stations, the TV programming that relies on this lack of civility, this fighting to get ratings and whatnot. I mean, I just choose to ignore some of them. When it happens here in Arkansas, you will see me at times just not cover it. Because I'm not going to let it sink to that level. And I'm not bringing that here in my program.
And again, when it does come to confront some of that stuff is again why I told you earlier. I think that there is a civil and a polite way to ask tough questions. You don't have to be a jerk about it. And at the national level, there is the propensity to be a jerk when you're asking or interviewing some of these people.
And then sometimes just the selection of the news to cover. It's like why would you cover that? You know that the only reason you're covering that is because it will stir up controversy and make people mad, angry, whatever adjective you want to use. And I know that that's good for ratings, but it's bad for democracy. And you're giving people a platform to spew stuff that doesn't deserve a platform. And that just builds like a snowball and creates the need for more.
[0:39:54] KM: And then you have mass shootings.
[0:39:56] RB: And I'm like I'm not going to do that.
[0:39:59] KM: Wasn't there a time that you were required – media was required to give both sides of the story?
[0:40:04] RB: Yeah. It was called the Fairness Doctrine. It was done away within the Reagan years.
[0:40:10] KM: Could we get it back?
[0:40:11] RB: Congress would have to pass a law to make that happen. Do you think Republicans and Democrats would agree on doing that in a majority fashion? I mean, I'll answer that. No. They can't even agree on a budget. I mean, it's not going to happen in my working career lifetime.
[0:40:29] KM: All right. This is what you said. This is a quote from you.
[0:40:32] RB: Oh, from me?
[0:40:33] KM: Mm-hmm. "The role of the media and pundits has never been more critical than it is today. In a world filled with information and misinformation is the responsibility of journalists and commentators to provide accurate, balanced and well-researched perspectives. We should aim to facilitate constructive debates, present facts and encourage critical thinking. Our role is not to tell people what to think, but to provide them with the tools to make informed decisions."
[0:41:07] RB: Who said that?
[0:41:08] KM: You're so smart.
[0:41:10] RB: I do believe all that though.
[0:41:11] KM: This show kind of started out originally as kind of help for entrepreneurs. Because I get so many questions ask me about what do I do about this? And I realized I have a lot of entrepreneurial knowledge. And so, that's kind of how it started. But then it morphed into all these other things and became this much more than that.
But when you were talking about how you bought a business in Northwest Arkansas that exponentially grew your business overnight, I spent 30 years trying to incrementally grow my business every year.
[0:41:40] RB: I think that too.
[0:41:41] KM: I know. And it would grow 10% every year.
[0:41:43] RB: That's better than me.
[0:41:45] KM: And I would think, "Well, 10 –" well, at the time, let's say if I was selling a million dollars, that means I'd grow to 1,100,000 the next year. Well, it would take a long time to get to 10 million in sales. I'd be 95, which was always my goal, is to have 10 million in sales.
Then, during COVID happened, a lot of these mom and pops went belly up. And so, we started buying up these small businesses that were not on the internet. And our business grew exponentially because of that. And I didn't realize how good that was going to grow my sales. I didn't know if I bought this company, if sales would fall off, or what would happen. But it actually was the synergy of the both together that really took my business to another level.
[0:42:30] RB: I have two pieces of business advice that I give out when I asked. Are you asking?
[0:42:35] KM: Mm-hmm. I am.
[0:42:35] RB: Okay.
[0:42:37] GM: That's where she was going with all that.
[0:42:39] RB: One is listen to the marketplace, which is what you're describing. If you're in touch with your business and you're in touch with what affects your business, you're going to see the signals and the signs that tell you to buy the business next door or to not buy the business next door. You're going to understand your customers or your clients. You know what works. There are ways to experiment and try some things that may or may not work. You've done it. I've done it.
[0:43:08] KM: Oh, yeah.
[0:43:09] RB: You learn from the ones that don't. You capitalize on the ones that do. But listening to the marketplace. Having the ability to listen to the marketplace and understand when the shifts are occurring. I mean, that's how we move from just being a television show to, "You know what we could – we could transfer this to radio also. Oh, and now this internet thing come along. I can take those same interviews and turn them into stories on the internet." I'm just giving you the same information but in different platforms. That was listening to the marketplace. How do consumers of news want to get their news? They want it here, here, here, here, here, here. We've done that.
And we've experimented with some stuff that – we did a podcast. There's just not a big market for a podcast for our daily news.
[0:43:52] KM: It's a lot of work.
[0:43:53] RB: It's a lot of work. My other piece of advice is – and you'll appreciate this one, is don't do business with [inaudible 0:43:59].
[0:44:00] KM: I agree. If you can't do it on a handshake, don't do business with them.
[0:44:04] RB: There are three million people in the state of Arkansas. And I can probably name on one hand the number of people I've had to do business with that I did not enjoy doing business with. I can find less than five people that I could do the same amount of business with out of a pool of 3 million.
I mean, I've had some people that have been very difficult to work with before. And there have been times that I just packed everything up in a box and went, "Here's your stuff. We're done." "No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait." I'm like, "I'm not doing business with you. Because I have – first of all, I want a better energy from someone I'm dealing with. And secondly, your business is not important to me. I mean, if it's going to be this difficult, you need to find somebody else that you can work with."
[0:44:50] KM: And you have to sometimes fire a customer.
[0:44:53] RB: Yeah. I mean, it was just – it really might even be just not even taking their business to begin with. I mean, you're like, "Ugh." But I'm not going to waste my time and energy with somebody that's not – it's not a mutually beneficial relationship.
[0:45:05] KM: And I do believe that energy is truly around these people. And I believe it's not good for everybody around. All right. Here's my game. You have to give me one word to describe our current Arkansas administration. People that are in our current administration. Give me one word for Sarah Sanders Huckabee.
[0:45:24] RB: Young.
[0:45:27] KM: How about Attorney General Tim Griffin.
[0:45:31] RB: Talkative.
[0:45:33] KM: Oh, you're so good at this game. You know, not everybody's good at this game. Mayor Frank Scott.
[0:45:40] RB: Friendly?
[0:45:42] KM: City Manager Bruce Moore?
[0:45:45] RB: What's the right – these are adjectives.
[0:45:47] KM: Well, yeah. One word.
[0:45:49] RB: Long-tenured. It's hyphenated.
[0:45:50] GM: There you go.
[0:45:51] KM: Oh, God. You're so good. North Little Rock Mayor Terry Hartwick.
[0:45:59] RB: Well, I've got to – it's more than one word. I'm trying to get it down to one word here. Collegial.
[0:46:06] KM: Oh, that is a good one for him. He dated the cheerleader. Married a cheerleader.
[0:46:11] RB: Well, I didn't mean it because of that. He's very friendly. He's easy to contact. He's easy to get along with.
[0:46:17] KM: He's accessible. He's got a good heart too. He's got a really good heart. French Hill?
[0:46:22] RB: French Hill. Smart.
[0:46:25] KM: Tom Cotton.
[0:46:28] RB: Ambitious.
[0:46:28] KM: Boozman.
[0:46:31] RB: Kindhearted.
[0:46:32] GM: Young and old.
[0:46:33] KM: I'm waiting for somebody to say, "Oh." How about Rutledge?
[0:46:38] RB: Leslie Rutledge.
[0:46:39] KM: Yeah.
[0:46:39] RB: Yeah. Tenacious.
[0:46:44] KM: The Arkansas Senate as a whole?
[0:46:47] RB: In olden days, I would say cerebral. but I'm not going to use that adjective in this one. I would say – I will say tempered. How about that?
[0:47:00] KM: That's so tempered.
[0:47:03] GM: Tempered.
[0:47:05] KM: All right. This is the last break.
[0:47:06] RB: Because the house is not like that. The house is wild. Crazy.
[0:47:10] KM: Oh, I should have said – I should have said the house. All right. Give me one word for the house.
[0:47:15] RB: Wild, crazy, diverse. I'll give you three. Because there are three times –
[0:47:18] KM: Reminds me of the tour when you go to the old state house and you go in there and they give you the tour about how the guys came in from the old –
[0:47:25] RB: Killed a guy on the floor.
[0:47:26] KM: Killed a guy right there on the floor.
[0:47:28] RB: Yeah. It was a speaker of the house.
[0:47:29] KM: We're about there again. Aren't we? We're speaking today with the well-respected Mr. Roby Brock. Host of Talk Business & Politics and CEO of the parent company the Natural State Media. When we come back, this is our last break, we're going to do career tips for aspiring journalists. And I'm going to tell you how you can hear, watch and read Roby's news coverage. We'll be right back.
[0:47:49] GM: All UIYB past and present interviews are available at Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy's YouTube channel, Facebook page, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette's digital version, flagandbanner.com website or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just ask your smart speaker to play Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. And by subscribing to our YouTube channel or flagandbanner.com's email list, you'll receive prior notification of that day's guest. Back to you, Kerry.
[0:48:15] KM: We're speaking today with journalist, reporter, entrepreneur and pundit, Mr. Roby Brock. Known for his insightful commentary as host of Talk Business & Politics in Little Rock, Arkansas. Being a lawyer used to be an honorable profession, Roby, so was the business of news and reporting one time. But more than a few –
[0:48:30] RB: Really? You don't think that it still is?
[0:48:32] KM: More than a few bad players have tarnished both professions by putting greed over working for the greater good. In the current media landscape and knowing what you know today, would you still recommend the news business to aspiring journalists?
[0:48:45] RB: Look. People need to follow their passion. And if your passion is to tell stories, to communicate, to use the news to bring things to light that need to be brought to light, whether that's just an interview with someone to learn something about them, or whether it's to fix an injustice, or whether it's just to report the daily what's happening. I mean, that's all news. It's just all different. You got to find your lane. You got to find your space.
Experiment with all of that if you aspire to be a journalist. And experiment with the different platforms, the different media that you might be working in online only. You might be working in TV. It's different. You need to be able to have some functional knowledge of that because you'll find where you gravitate towards and spend some time –
[0:49:34] KM: Are there any investigative reporters anymore?
[0:49:37] RB: There are. Investigative reporting is difficult. It's expensive. Because you're not going to hire somebody right out of school to be an investigative journalist. There's a lot you have to learn to be able to navigate systems that you need to do and to report in a way that's not going to get you in legal trouble, which is a consideration.
[0:50:01] KM: Talk Business & Politics can be found where today?
[0:50:05] RB: Talkbusiness.net.
[0:50:07] KM: Oh. What about TV?
[0:50:10] RB: We have all our videos.
[0:50:13] KM: What's the Capital View?
[0:50:15] RB: Capital View is a political TV show that KARK puts on. And I was the original host of that 10 years ago this year. And then I went away for a couple years over to KATV. And then I came back to KRK and took over Capital View again. I do two TV shows.
[0:50:31] KM: A week?
[0:50:31] RB: A week.
[0:50:33] KM: Thank you, Roby, for sharing your invaluable insights and experiences. We have you a US Arkansas desk set.
[0:50:40] RB: Oh, I thought I was going to get a water bottle.
[0:50:42] KM: No. No. You get that to take back. Do you already have a US and Arkansas desk set?
[0:50:47] RB: Not a desk set. No.
[0:50:48] KM: You need one.
[0:50:48] RB: Thank you.
[0:50:49] KM: To our listeners, this show has been brought to you by Arkansas's flagandbanner.com made possible by the good works of our commercial voice, local celeb and audio graph, Mr. Tom Wood. Summa cum laude videographer, Mr. Jonathan Hankins. Production manager, daughter, Megan Pitman. And my co-host, son, Gray McCoy.
Thank you for spending time with us. We hope you've heard or learned something that's been enlightening or inspiring. And that it, whatever it is, will help you up your, business your independence or your life. I'm Kerry McCoy and I'll see you next time on Up in Your Business. Until then, be brave and keep it up.
[0:51:29] GM: You've been listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. For links to resources you heard discussed on today's show, go to flagandbanner.com, select radio show and choose today's guest. If you'd like to sponsor this show or any show, contact me, Gray. That's firstname.lastname@example.org. All interviews are recorded and posted the following week. Stay informed of exciting upcoming guests by subscribing to our YouTube channel or podcast wherever you like to listen. Kerry's goal is simple, to help you live the American dream.