Wena Supernaw
Quapaw Nation Business Committee Chair
Born in Skiatook, Oklahoma, Wena Supernaw spent much of her early life on the move with her parents, who she credits for the tenacity and commitment that Wena has demonstrated over her long career.
Graduating from George Mason University with a Bachelor's in Accounting, Supernaw took graduate courses at both Virginia Tech and the University of Texas before opting to test her mettle in the world of business finance. The bulk of Wena's career was spent as the Vice President of MetLife, where she led teams embroiled in budgeting, investments, communications, contract negotiations, and more.
After over 30 years in an incredibly technical and nuanced field, Wena retired and pursued public service with the Quapaw Nation. She has been elected to several committees, and currently serves as Vice Chairperson on the Inter-Tribal Council and as the QN Business Committee Chair, where she applies her experience to ensure the economic wellbeing of her people. Aware of how every great accomplishment is made on the shoulders of our ancestors, Wena Supernaw gets out of bed every morning asking herself what she can do to uplift those who follow in her footsteps.
Listen to Learn:
- How Wena got her start in business finance
- About the responsibilities and skills accrued in her 30+ year career
- What Supernaw does to give back to the Quapaw Nation, and more...
Podcast Links
TRANSCRIPT
EPISODE 456
[INTRODUCTION]
[0:00:08] GM: Welcome to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy, a production of flagandbanner.com. Through storytelling, conversational interviews, and Kerry’s
natural curiosity, this weekly radio show and podcast offers listeners and insider's view into the commonalities of entrepreneurs, athletes, medical professionals, politicians, and other successful people, all sharing their stories of success and the ups and downs of risk-taking. Connect with Kerry through her candid, funny, informative, and always encouraging weekly blog. Now, it's time for Kerry McCoy to get all up in your business.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:00:41] KM: Thank you, son Gray. This show began in 2016 as a way for me and other successful people to pay forward our experiential knowledge in a conversational way. It wasn't long before my team and I realized that we were the ones learning. Listening to our guests has been both educational and inspiring. To quote the Dalai Lama, “When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new.” After listening to hundreds of successful people share their stories, I've noticed some recurring traits. Most of my guests believe in a higher power, have the heart of a teacher, and they all work really hard. Before I introduce today's guest, I want to let you know, if you miss any part of today's show, want to hear it again or share it, there's a way and son Gray will tell you how.
[0:01:32] GM: All UIYB past and present interviews are available at Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy’s YouTube channel, Facebook page, the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette’s digital version, flagandbanner.com’s website, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just ask your smart speaker to play Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy. By subscribing to our YouTube channel or flagandbanner.com’s email list, you will receive prior notification of that week’s guest. Back to you, Kerry.
[0:01:58] KM: Thanks again. My guest today is Miss Wena Supernaw. She is the elected Quapaw Nation Business Committee Chair in Oklahoma, which has a long lineage in Arkansas, and today has found its way back to its roots by owning and operating Saracen Casino Resort in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Prior to Wena being elected chair of the Quapaw Nation, she spent 30 years as the global process leader of management reporting for MetLife Incorporated.
Like so many of my guests, she has a wide heart and a strong work ethic. In addition to her demanding job at MetLife, she served as a board of directors, secretary, and governance chair for Big Brothers Big Sisters, where in 2021, she was named board member of the year. She is an Oklahoma native and an enrolled member of the Quapaw and Osage Nation. My favorite, she was appointed head woman dancer for the 2010 Ki-He-Kah-Steh Powwow. Welcome to the table, the Quapaw Nation Business Chair and Powwow dancer, Miss Wena Supernaw. Hey, Wena.
[0:03:11] WS: Have. That means hello in Quapaw.
[0:03:13] KM: Have. We were talking about your name, before we came on the show. Wena is actually pronounced –
[0:03:20] WS: Wina.
[0:03:21] KM: Wina, which is beautiful. But you southern it up.
[0:03:25] WS: I did. I can't help but speak English. It means second girl in Quapaw.
[0:03:31] KM: Oh, really?
[0:03:32] WS: Mm-hmm.
[0:03:32] KM: I guess that's what you were.
[0:03:33] WS: Yeah. Yeah.
[0:03:35] KM: Supernaw, come on.
[0:03:37] WS: Well, it's more French-Canadian, part of my other side of my family. They came out of Canada through Michigan and are Muncie-Delaware.
[0:03:47] KM: It has nothing to do with some Indian name like your great, great grandfather, whose name tall something.
[0:03:55] WS: Tall chief.
[0:03:56] KM: Was he a chief?
[0:03:57] WS: Yes. Yes.
[0:03:59] KM: Your lineage is both Quapaw and Osage.
[0:04:01] WS: Correct.
[0:04:03] KM: Your mother and father?
[0:04:04] WS: Just my father. My mother's Irish.
[0:04:08] KM: Your mother's Irish. Your father is Osage and Quapaw.
[0:04:12] WS: Correct. And Muncie-Delaware. Although that's not a federally recognized tribe.
[0:04:18] KM: Tell us about your father's lineage and how that your mother met him.
[0:04:23] WS: They originally met, I want to say, in 1955, she was a high school sophomore, he was a senior. They were together ever since then. He went off to war for the US Army, spent some time in Korea, came back, thank goodness. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. They were married. Before he passed away, they were married for 53 years. It's an inspiration.
[0:04:47] KM: Yeah, it is.
[0:04:49] WS: I never saw him fight. Never. Never saw him fight. I'm sure they did, but they kept it to themselves.
[0:04:56] KM: Are you married?
[0:04:57] WS: Yes.
[0:04:57] KM: You fight with your husband?
[0:04:59] WS: In our own way.
[0:05:00] KM: They met in high school. That means that – was that on the reservation? I guess not.
[0:05:04] WS: Yeah. That was actually in Skiatook, Oklahoma, where I was born. That's part of the Osage reservation.
[0:05:11] KM: Okay. Your Irish mother went to school on the reservation?
[0:05:14] WS: Yes. We actually went to school in Spiri, and that's Shawnee land. Most of Oklahoma is Indian territory.
[0:05:21] KM: Most of Oklahoma is.
[0:05:23] WS: 60% of the land base is Indian territory.
[0:05:25] KM: I did not realize that. Everybody goes to high school then reservations, probably.
[0:05:31] WS: Almost. Unless you're out in No Man's Land, or right in the middle of the state in Oklahoma City, most of it is Indian territory.
[0:05:37] KM: Did you grow up on a reservation?
[0:05:39] WS: Osage reservation.
[0:05:41] KM: But you're the Quapaw head?
[0:05:42] WS: Correct. That's an interesting part of our history. One of the times that the Quapaw were displaced, and it happened multiple times over hundreds of years, a lot of the Quapaw, once our reservation was designated in northeastern Oklahoma, it wasn't fit for growing crops. They were starving. My great-great-grandfather took a bunch of the Quapaw, the bulk of them, to Osage County, and they sought refuge with Osage Nation. They lived there and they somewhat prosper there. That's when my great-great-grandfather, who was full-blood Quapaw, he met and married a full-blood Osage woman, and they had one child. She's grandma Supernaw. She's quite well known among the Quapaw.
It was very common for a lot of Quapaw and Osages to be together. But that's not the first time. This is a really cool story. Quapaw is one of five Dhegiha Siouan tribes, if you will. We were all one at one point, and this goes all the way back to Angel Mounds, as well as Cahokia hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
[0:06:54] KM: They were all part of what tribe?
[0:06:55] WS: One tribe. Dhegiha.
[0:06:57] KM: Dhegiha.
[0:06:57] WS: It was Quapaw, Kaw, Omaha, Osage, and Ponca. We were all together. Then, as westward migration took place, and this was long before European first contact, we don't really know why they started moving. It could have been wars. It could have been famine. It could have been a variety of things. But they started moving west and ended up at the Mississippi River. Then, it's basically pretty much where they split. I'm oversimplifying. But that's what Quapaw is. It's Ugapa. It means downstream people.
When the rest of them either went further north or further west, we went south down the Mississippi until we ended up at really the confluence of the white Arkansas and Mississippi Rivers. That's here. That's our homeland. We're the downstream people.
[0:07:44] KM: The downstream people.
[0:07:46] GM: I guess, historically, over time, because all of those populations split up and relatively populated the same parts of what we now know as North America, as history goes on, I guess, you can overlap again, like in the case of your parents.
[0:08:02] WS: Correct. Correct. Between the Quapaw and Osage, and they came together again. Our language was the same until we split up. That's what you'll find, other people that study this stuff their entire lives, and they’re experts on this, that we know a little bit about when we all split up, because of certain words that are different. The word horse is different between those five tribes. Because, of course, horses came in from the Spaniards from the south. We all developed our own word for the word horse, for the animal.
[0:08:36] GM: Because you were all different tribes, people's –
[0:08:39] WS: By that point.
[0:08:40] GM: - population by that point. Yeah.
[0:08:41] WS: Ain’t that cool?
[0:08:43] KM: Yes. You're a history buff.
[0:08:44] WS: I love reading. I love reading about Quapaw.
[0:08:49] KM: Is it true that the tribes fought amongst themselves?
[0:08:54] WS: Oh, absolutely. One of our oldest buffalo robes that's actually in France, it's with them. I'm going to mess it up, Musée Dorsee, anyway. I can't.
[0:09:05] GM: That's pretty right.
[0:09:06] WS: Okay. Well, I studied French, and please don't tell my French teacher. She was a lovely woman, but she knew I was useless. Anyway, one of our oldest buffalo hides is a scene, it's three villages robe. It's actually been here in Arkansas, the historical Arkansas museum, before when it was on a traveling tour, and we're trying to get it back, that and others to the US, over the course of the next couple of years through consultation with the French government. That three villages robe shows a scene between the Quapaw fighting with another tribe. I won't mention it, because I don't want to –
[0:09:42] KM: Why?
[0:09:43] WS: Well, because they're US congressional members. They're enrolled into those tribes, and we like to keep things peaceable. Anyway, but yeah, Quapaws are winning. We're chasing them away.
[0:09:56] KM: They did fight among themselves. But at the same time, it seemed like what I learned in getting ready for the show was once the government started moving them off their land and moving them to Oklahoma and other places, that they united as a group, maybe more so than before.
[0:10:13] WS: Well, at least the US Calvary wasn't going to let the Native Americans fight with one another anymore. That was the whole point. They wanted to divide everybody up to assimilate, separate, segregate.
[0:10:27] GM: Divide and conquer.
[0:10:28] WS: Mm-hmm. Divide and conquer.
[0:10:32] KM: How did 30 years at Met Life prepare you for this chair position at the Quapaw Nation? Where did you live most of your life? Did you live in Oklahoma for the MetLife Insurance? It said global, so I was concerned about if you traveled a lot.
[0:10:49] WS: Yeah, I traveled a lot. I started with MetLife in Atlanta. I was there for about 17 years in the Atlanta area. Then there came a time where I had to make a decision. They were shutting down our offices in Atlanta. My choices were either to go to New Jersey or to Florida. I chose Florida. Ended up in Florida for another 17 years. That's where I retired. It was always in the US, never at headquarters in New York.
As MetLife went through their global acquisitions through a couple of different rounds, we ended up acquiring scores of international insurance companies. Part of what my role was, and this was the – I thought the, I don't want to say the most fun, but the most challenging and the opportunities for really great development and learning, was to integrate those international insurance companies onto our domestic, and sometimes global platforms. It just gave a very, very different perspective of the way that other cultures treat one another, either in a professional setting or a personal setting. It was just a real eye-opening experience. At one point, I had team members in Hong Kong, Tokyo, Ireland, New York, and the bulk of them were in India, as well as some in the US.
[0:12:15] KM: You have to have interpreters?
[0:12:16] WS: No. On some occasions, we would have certain team members that had – really excellent local team members who had excellent language skills. There was one accounting manager in Tokyo that his English wasn't that great, and my Japanese was non-existent. And so, we would use other team members to help facilitate. Remember, our language skills didn't have to be so prolific, because you're not contemplating issues of the universe. You're trying to talk about financial reporting and accounting terminology. It decreases the population of the type of words that we needed to learn in order to converse.
[0:12:57] GM: Adding to your vocabulary.
[0:12:59] KM: What did you study in school that made you able to get this job? That sounds like a great job.
[0:13:03] WS: Yeah, it was a great job. Mine is a bachelor's of science in accounting.
[0:13:10] GM: There you go.
[0:13:11] WS: Numbers tell the story. Doesn’t matter which language you're talking about.
[0:13:14] KM: That's what you're doing for the Quapaw Nation now.
[0:13:16] WS: To some extent, yeah. There are many other aspects to it that I've had to learn on the job. Some of the things, going back to your initial question, in terms of lessons learned at MetLife that are actually applicable, things like governance, following the rules. What are our laws? How do we interpret the operational impact of those laws? All that is very much in common. It's not any different than any other governance structure, if you will. That's what the Quapaw Nation Business Committee is there to do: to ensure that we adhere to our Quapaw laws at all times.
[0:13:58] KM: You haven't lived most of your life on the reservation. But you're back on it now?
[0:14:02] WS: Yes. Yes.
[0:14:02] KM: You're back on the reservation, as they say.
[0:14:03] WS: I’m home. I’m home.
[0:14:05] KM: Does it feel like home?
[0:14:06] WS: Mm-hmm.
[0:14:07] KM: What is it like for most people that grow up on the reservation? Why do they all want to go away?
[0:14:13] WS: Two things. I'll use my own family's story as a little bit of a highlight. My dad grew up on the Osage reservation. His family, by that point, they didn't have sufficient funds for him to go to college. Graduated in 1957. Oklahoma was a very, very different place at that time. That's when he went into the army. When he came back and he and my mother got married and started their family, he actually went back to school at the University of Tulsa on the GI Bill. That was what really helped him. In order for him to grow his career, he had to move. That's the same experience that a lot of Quapaw families had at that time in both the 50s, as well as the 60s. Then he moved all of us to a multitude of places across the country, and it was to get a better life, find additional opportunities.
[0:15:10] KM: What was his career? Military still?
[0:15:13] WS: No, he wasn't. He was still government service, federal law enforcement. He was a US postal inspector.
[0:15:17] KM: Oh, really?
[0:15:18] WS: His degree is in accounting, too.
[0:15:20] KM: You all are numbers people.
[0:15:22] WS: Mm-hmm.
[0:15:23] KM: This is a great place to take a break. When we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Oklahoma's Quapaw Nation Chairperson, Miss Wena Supernaw. Still to come, history of the Quapaws and the parallels to the movie Killers of the Flower Moon, and the whys and hows of the tribe’s decision to build the Saracen Casino in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Maybe if we have time, we'll get Wena to share some betting tips with us. We'll be right back.
[BREAK]
[0:15:50] GM: You're listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy, a production of flagandbanner.com. In 1975, with only $400, Kerry founded Arkansas Flag and Banner. Since then, the business has grown and changed, along with Kerry's experience and leadership knowledge. In 1995, she embraced the Internet and rebranded her company as simply flagandbanner.com. In 2004, she became an early blogger. Since then, she has founded the nonprofit Friends of Dreamland Ballroom, began publishing her magazine, Brave. And in 2016, branched out into this very radio show, YouTube channel, and podcast.
In 2020, Kerry McCoy Enterprises acquired ourcornermarket.com, an online company specializing in American-made plaques, signage, and memorials. In 2021, Flag and Banner expanded to a satellite office in Miami, Florida, where first-generation immigrants keep the art of sewing alive and flags made in America. Telling American-made stories, selling American-made flags, the flagandbanner.com. Back to you, Kerry.
[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:16:54] KM: We're speaking today with Miss Wena Supernaw, the Head Chair of Oklahoma's Quapaw Nation, the tribe who founded the Saracen Casino in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, and has deep roots in Arkansas. Okay, Wena. I couldn't watch it. It upsets me. I can't watch dramas like this. But in the movie Killers of the Flower Moon, it tells the story of a series of murders that took place in Oklahoma against the Osage Nation for their oil rights. Did you watch it? How did that movie affect you?
[0:17:24] WS: I have watched it numerous times and picked up different things on different occasions. I was born there on the Osage reservation. Nobody ever talked about it, even the families that were directly impacted. They didn't talk about it to their own kids and grandkids, and great-grandkids.
[0:17:41] KM: Why do you think that is?
[0:17:43] WS: To protect them.
[0:17:44] KM: From what?
[0:17:45] WS: There was always this back-current that it was still happening.
[0:17:48] KM: Oh.
[0:17:50] WS: This is true for both Quapaw as well as Osage. There are normal prices when you walk into a store, and then there are Quapaw and Osage prices inflated.
[0:17:58] KM: Still?
[0:18:00] WS: Mm-hmm.
[0:18:01] KM: How does talking about that help or hurt the case?
[0:18:05] WS: I'll give you an example. For the Quapaw, where our resources were exploited along with the people are when the lead and zinc mines were going. In the early 1900s, started 1907 and the mines shut down in 1970. That's the reason that so much of the Quapaw reservation is a superfund site. It's called Tar Creek. The mining fields of Pitcher, Carbon, some communities that don't even exist, Pitcher is a ghost town at this point, because of a buyout that took place to move the residents out of that immediate area, because the lead contaminants were so terrible and this subsidence, which is basically sinkholes, if you will. The lead in the kids' blood level was so high. Of course, it's directly correlated with learning disabilities, disease. The lead levels, we still actively monitor in the air, the water as well as the ground.
[0:19:03] KM: How did the lead get so high? From mining?
[0:19:06] WS: Yeah. What happened was the way that they would mine, it wasn't just vertically down in the ground. They would go down and out to get into those rich veins, and then they go further down and out.
[0:19:18] KM: What were they mining?
[0:19:19] WS: Lead and zinc. We literally had 70 years of unregulated, unsupervised mining activity on the Quapaw reservation. The Bureau of Indian Affairs had that responsibility and they breached that trust. You got to remember too, and this is very similar to the Otis age story that if a mining company wanted on a particular Quapaw tribal member's land, if the Quapaw tribal member didn't want to engage with them, they would either have them declared incompetent by the federal government and then the BIA would have the ability to sign on their behalf. Number two, they'd burn them out. Number three, they'd kill them. Number four, they'd marry them.
[0:20:03] KM: Oh.
[0:20:04] WS: That land and the mineral rights belong to the individual Quapaw allotee that had been placed on that land. Unlike the Osage, who maintained overall mineral rights collectively, Quapaw didn't do that. The mineral rights belong to the individual Quapaw that received that land allotment. It's called a land patent. They had the mineral rights and only they could make the decision about what they wanted done with their land, unless they were declared incompetent and then the federal government would basically sign off on just about anything. They got pennies on the dollar for what they should have received in terms of the –
[0:20:47] KM: They're smart that they got the mineral rights, because I know people up in Cersei, where they're doing fracking that have property and they don't have mineral rights, and they didn't know it, and these big companies come in and start drilling on their land. They're like, “I didn't know I didn't have the mineral rights below me.” The Quapaws and Osage were pretty smart to do that.
[0:21:08] WS: There's a downside to it, too. Yeah.
[0:21:10] KM: What do you mean?
[0:21:11] WS: Well, because the Quapaw who were signing off the ones who did not get declared incompetent, or the government decided for them, here's what got left. This is what's created the superfund site and the contamination is that when they bring the ore out of the ground and extract the lead and the zinc, what's left is called mining tailings. The mining tailings are hundreds and hundreds of feet high, bigger than football fields, multiple of them. All that excess rock that was ground up got brought up out of the ground and left on the top of the ground. Well, there are trace amounts of lead in that and it's in the air, it's in the water, and it's in the ground. That's why it's a superfund site.
[0:22:00] KM: Do you live near that?
[0:22:01] WS: Mm-hmm.
[0:22:02] KM: Oh, okay. How's your memory?
[0:22:06] WS: Not so great these days. But the biggest impact is to the kids. Yeah. It's to the kids.
[0:22:12] KM: It's still going on. It's still having that big of an effect.
[0:22:16] WS: Well, we're still remediating to clean it up.
[0:22:18] KM: Are you?
[0:22:19] WS: In concert with the Environmental Protection Agency, as well as Oklahoma Department of Environmental Quality, we're cleaning it up ourselves.
[0:22:27] KM: You put it back in the hole and bury it? Is that the concept?
[0:22:29] WS: No. We actually sell off the marketable, what they call chap. Those are the mine tailings. Some of it's marketable, and it's perfectly fine. We sell that under the supervision of the BIA. Then the unmarketable chap, we put in what's called a repository, which is a great big piece of land. I mean, it's very, very tall. Then, eventually, we'll have to encapsulate it under multiple feet of top soil.
[0:22:54] GM: Like a landfill. Yeah. I've watched a documentary on the remediation and the lead lines and stuff.
[0:23:00] WS: Oh, Tar Creek.
[0:23:01] GM: Yes, that was it. Yeah.
[0:23:02] KM: What was it?
[0:23:02] GM: It's fascinating, awful. But Tark Creek, is that what it was called? Yeah.
[0:23:06] WS: Correct.
[0:23:09] GM: It's the scale of it all is what I think is the most incredible, because like you said, it's like football fields of these piles of rock that are contaminated with lead. They're just out back of these tiny little communities that where their kids go run and play and run up these piles. Yeah. It's like the stories you used to tell about how you all played in the DDT trucks, because you didn't know any better.
[0:23:39] KM: The mosquito trucks.
[0:23:40] GM: Yeah, yeah. I imagine there's a little bit of that there, too. That exposure, the scale of that exposure is crazy on so many levels in that place. It's astounding to think that we can allow that to happen. Because you think about places like Chernobyl or something, where you have this awful exposure and nobody's allowed within this perimeter and stuff. It's just right there in the backyard in Oklahoma. Yeah, it's crazy.
[0:24:07] KM: Tell us about, we call them the Quapaws, but before the interview, you pronounced it correctly for us. How do you say Quapaw in –
[0:24:14] WS: Ogapa.
[0:24:15] KM: Ogapa. Under duress, the Quapaws seated 20 million acres in Arkansas to the federal government, hanging on to between 2 million and 3 million acres in the Little Rock area. How did they lose that?
[0:24:31] WS: I don't think they really had a choice. That was the first treaty with the US in 1818. There was just so much pressure for westward expansion, and settlers coming in. This is rich farmland. I can understand why people of European descent would have wanted this land, because it is so rich. I think a lot of it had to do with the tribe today is still not as big as it was in terms of population at the time of European first contact, which would have been 1673. We're still not back to that size. There were so few of us, why did we deserve to have all this land when all these people wanted to be farmers and to work the soil, grow crops? We had an expanding country. I mean, I understand it. I don't agree with it, but that's a different issue.
[0:25:27] KM: Yeah. You said they just outgunned you, probably.
[0:25:30] WS: Yeah.
[0:25:31] KM: Brought horses and guns and a cavalry.
[0:25:35] WS: It was a year ago, April, our 1818 treaty is actually quite beautiful. It's got artwork on it. It's one of the few that has that. They call those friendship treaties, where we seeded all that land in 1818. They were bringing out a series of either 17 or 18 of them out at NMAI in D.C., National Museum of American Indian. I had to stop and think about what that acronym actually meant. They did a beautiful unveiling, and it was there at NMAI for about six months. Even after the unveiling, I went back to visit with it a couple of times.
It's hard, because I know that some of the people who signed that treaty are quoted. They didn't want to do it. They had no choice. Had they not done that, we wouldn't have had any chance of survival at all. That's why they did it. Then the same thing in 1824, when we lost the rest of our land here in Arkansas. Then they moved us down to the Red River with the Caddo who didn't want us. Floods, tribe is continuing to decrease, starvation, disease, or elements. They marched us down there in January.
[0:26:50] GM: This is right after the signing of the treaty, right?
[0:26:52] WS: It would have been 1826 when they marched us down.
[0:26:55] GM: Yeah. Then, at what point do we see them all, I guess, eventually get to Oklahoma?
[0:27:01] WS: After we were in Caddo country for a couple of years, and it just was a disaster, everybody dispersed. There were a significant number of Quapaw that came back to Saracens land up here.
[0:27:13] KM: At Pine Bluff.
[0:27:14] WS: Correct. Anyway, there are a number of Quapaws that went to live on the Canadian River with the Muskogee Creeks to Texas with some of the Cherokee. They dispersed all over the place.
[0:27:26] GM: I see.
[0:27:27] WS: Then it wasn't until 1833, they designated our reservation in northeastern Oklahoma. We were there in about 1834. The story gets worse because once we got to northeastern Oklahoma, we reside in a county with eight other tribes. They were piling everybody in, and they realized pretty quickly after we had already built structures that we were about one mile off of where we should have been, so they made us move again. Then we got to where we needed to be. Then here comes the Civil War, and they ran us off the land again. That's about when Tall Chief took so many of the Quapaw to Osage, because we didn't have any place to be. Then we all had to go back to the reservation in 1890, when they were taking the census.
[0:28:16] KM: Talk about Chief Saracen. Who was this guy?
[0:28:20] WS: Saracen was a mixed blood Quapaw French. One of the really valuable traits that he had, I think, to both the US side, as well as to the Quapaw was that he spoke both languages.
[0:28:36] KM: French and English and –
[0:28:38] WS: Quapaw. Quapaw. What's interesting is because he was mixed blood, he could actually own land before Arkansas was a state.
[0:28:48] KM: If you go through Pine Bluff, even before they put in Saracen, because there's a Saracen landing for the river that flows down there.
[0:28:57] WS: Of course, that's where he's buried is there at St. Joseph's.
[0:28:59] KM: Oh, really?
[0:29:00] WS: Yes.
[0:29:01] KM: As the head woman dancer in 2010 for the Ki-He-Kah-Steh Powwow, tell us what that means.
[0:29:08] WS: It's an honor to be asked to do something of that nature. It's one of those occasions where even though in your mind, you're saying, “You know what? This is another commitment. I don't know if I really have time, or the energy, or the ability to do that.” In your heart, you have to say yes. Yeah, that's what we're taught. When you're asked to do something of that nature, you're not just representing yourself. Matter of fact, that's probably the least important. You're representing your family. You're representing those that can't dance. You're representing all your tribal nations, whether it's one or multitude.
[0:29:45] KM: That's beautiful. That’s beautiful. Is there a main career on the reservation to keep people from leaving?
[0:29:52] WS: 39 tribes in Oklahoma. Most of the tribes have one or multiple casinos. The hospitality industry is huge. In addition to that, of course, there are a whole multitude of hospitals. We're blessed to have two other business committee members who are health care professionals. When you get outside of the hospitality industry, there's not a lot there. That's one of the things that we talk about and are trying to take action on from an economic development standpoint, because we've got to give people a reason to stay. It's primarily two key constraints. One, lack of housing.
[0:30:34] KM: Oh, really?
[0:30:35] WS: We've been working with the Miami area Economic Development Authority on – they just finished housing analysis, because there is such a housing shortage. You've got to have good homes, good residences for people to reside and not ones that cost $800 a month to heat. Number two, you got to have jobs that are really attractive to not just my generation, but the upcoming generations. The way that they like to work and the modes of work have got to shift with that.
[0:31:10] KM: Alcohol and substance abuse on the reservation, you hear about it all the time. Even my father talked about it, maybe not in a very colorful way. Is that really a thing?
[0:31:21] WS: It is a thing. It is a thing. And multi-generational.
[0:31:25] KM: My husband has the gene. He has that alcohol gene that's run in his family for generations. I do believe that it's a gene. Look out, Gray.
[0:31:35] GM: Yeah, yeah. We've talked about that on the podcast a lot, too.
[0:31:38] KM: No, I'm just kidding. He does not have. You do not have that gene.
[0:31:42] GM: No. But yeah, it is very apparent, there's a family history of it. It can be intergenerational. Yeah.
[0:31:47] WS: That's the reason we actually – and it was long before I came into office, we have a program called Quapaw Counseling Services. It's a dosing clinic, but we also have other types of counseling available for both adults as well as through our youth development program. Those things are very real. One of the big objectives we've got is to figure out how to build, basically, a detox in an inpatient facility.
[0:32:16] KM: Is it because they're bored? Besides the genetic component, is it just boredom? I mean, sometimes I drink when I'm bored. Like, “I'm bored. Let’s have a drink.” Yeah.
[0:32:25] WS: There are correlations between substance abuse and that lead.
[0:32:30] KM: Oh.
[0:32:30] WS: And I'm not saying the lead created it. I think it increases the propensity.
[0:32:32] KM: Oh, but I can totally see that. Painters are around a lot of lead-base and they have drinking problems.
[0:32:39] GM: Well, and you, if you have end up developing health issues, because you're surrounded by a bunch of heavy metals, then you can get addicted to opiates, because you have to deal with medications and stuff like that, because of feedback loop.
[0:32:52] KM: When we screen printed, we had a lot of painters here, and they always talked about – those guys always talked about it among themselves about alcoholism and the paint and the lead in the paint, and so on. Well, that's really interesting. I think you may have found the crux of it. Don't know what to do about it.
[0:33:10] GM: Counseling. Yeah.
[0:33:13] WS: Counseling. One of the fascinating things and that's not a good thing that I've learned since I was in office is that you may have a tribal member, even a community member, that is trying to break the cycle and they want to go into rehab. But you have to be detoxed before you go into rehab. They don't want to go into detox, because then their kids will get taken away. How do you provide those family support services, so those kids aren't permanently removed from the home, or at least even temporarily for the parent to go through a very intentional program of healing?
[0:33:55] KM: The other thing that I don't know if this is true or not, but I've watched a few documentaries on missing children and missing women as an epidemic on the reservation. Is that a real thing?
[0:34:04] WS: It is a real thing, MMIW.
[0:34:07] KM: MMIW.
[0:34:08] WS: Missing and murdered indigenous women.
[0:34:12] KM: Why is that, do you think?
[0:34:14] WS: I don't have a great answer for you, but I'll give you a little bit of a story. When the EPA first, actually it goes back to the early mining days. When the mines first began to get, or the minerals began to get exploited, there were these pop-up communities. They didn't always attract. I mean, they attracted workers, but they also attracted a bunch of layabouts and ne\'er-do-wells, who exploited the Quapaw women.
The same thing happened when the EPA first came in and started some of the remediation and the cleanup work after the superfund designation, they brought in contractors. One of the things that the community experienced was an increase in those types of crimes. These people that were brought in, because they're contractors, they're not the folks that they grew up with. They didn't go to high school with them. Their aunt doesn't know their mom. That makes a big difference in terms of coming into a community and having ties, or the lack thereof and feeling perfectly and able to take advantage of everybody and everything that you can.
[0:35:23] KM: All right, this a great place to take a break. We come back, we'll continue talking to Miss Wena Supernaw, the Head Chair of Oklahoma's Quapaw Nation. In this next segment, we'll learn about their decision to build Saracen Casino and Resort in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, where in the 1800s, a sect of the Quapaws once lived, led by Chief Saracen. We'll be right back.
[BREAK]
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[INTERVIEW CONTINUED]
[0:36:48] KM: We're speaking today with Miss Wena Supernaw, the Head Chair of Oklahoma's Quapaw Nation, the tribe who founded the Saracen Casino in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. If you're just tuning in, we've talked about the coming together of the Osage and the Quapaw in Oklahoma. We've talked about the plight of the Osage when, not just our government, the American government, but other governments, or other foreign people came over and wanted land and forced the Quapaw out of Arkansas, who had 20 million acres, I just want to say that they hunted and harvested from, and that they're now in Oklahoma. But they're back with the Saracen Casino. So, we're going to talk a little bit to Wena about that.
I learned in my interview with Saracen's marketing director, Carlton Saffa, about the chief who was the Quapaw tribe was originally in Pine Bluff, and that Chief Saracen was there. Then you told me in an earlier segment, he spoke French, English, and Quapaw. Did you tell me how they came and actually took his land from him and moved him to Oklahoma?
[0:38:01] WS: I don't know if he was still alive at the time that we moved to Oklahoma, to be honest with you. I'd have to go back and look. I do want to say, that there's something very, very special about Pine Bluff, that whole area from there, all the way over to the Arkansas Post, because that's where we were – one of our original villages, Osotouy, is still right there on the other side of the water from the Arkansas Post.
[0:38:30] KM: What is the Arkansas Post?
[0:38:31] WS: A town on the eastern border? Yeah. Okay, so it was a fort.
[0:38:36] WS: It was the very first community that was built in this part of Arkansas.
[0:38:41] GM: That's why it's the Arkansas Post.
[0:38:45] KM: I love driving out there. I saw the Saracen landing, where you said that the chief was buried. I'm going to go and look at the – I love graves. I always visit.
[0:38:54] WS: What is it about getting older? All of a sudden, we like hanging out at cemeteries?
[0:38:57] GM: Mom’s always been like that though.
[0:38:58] KM: I've always been like that. Listen, people, if you find old an cemetery, take a sack lunch, take your top off and do a little sunbathing. There's nobody ever there. Just lay on those tombstones. It's nice and quiet. They're just peaceful. The highway, as Carlton Saffa told me, is one of the best highways in Arkansas.
[0:39:24] GM: Leading right to the casino.
[0:39:26] KM: Right on past to Monticello is one of the nicest highways in Arkansas. It's just beautiful out that way. Just like you were saying, it's just beautiful out that way. Tell us how you decided to put the Saracen Casino in Pine Bluff. I'm sure it's because of the chief. But what was the conversation that led up to that? How did you get a license here in Arkansas?
[0:39:48] WS: This all precedes my time in office. This is my understanding. Originally, they bought land, two parcels of land, really at the port. The original intention was to put a casino right there at the port, which in an industrial park, it makes no sense, in my mind. Railroad tracks without crossing guards, that could have caused all sorts of public safety issues with those that might stay late in the evening and over and by. That would be a disaster.
Then they bought the land in Pine Bluff and sold the land up at the port, except for one acre. It gets one acre, more or less up there, and I'll tell the story about that later if we want. Pine Bluff is in my mind, where we needed to be all the time.
[0:40:42] KM: I thought you said this was before your time.
[0:40:43] WS: It is.
[0:40:45] KM: You weren't the chair, but you're still on the committee.
[0:40:47] WS: No. I was not on the committee until 2021.
[0:40:49] GM: It's just her opinion.
[0:40:51] KM: Oh.
[0:40:51] WS: Correct. Just my opinion. We needed to be in Pine Bluff the entire time, because that's home. That's the center point in Arkansas for us. And so, it makes perfect sense. Saracen’s buried there. Saracen landing is right there. Aside from the fact, we knew that, well, the collective we. How about that? We knew it was going to have a huge positive impact to Jefferson County. That has played out and will continue to play out. It's a beautiful thing to be a part of, I don't know, not a renewal, but a rebirth of that part of the state, and to be a part of that is just incredible. I'm thrilled. Absolutely thrilled to be there, and happy that we're doing the expansion. By the time all is said and done, we'll be about 600 million into it, between the original casino, as well as the expansion.
[0:41:42] KM: Was it hard to get a license?
[0:41:46] WS: I think it was.
[0:41:47] KM: The gambling license?
[0:41:48] WS: From what I was told, because not so much the getting the license but getting amendment 100 passed.
[0:41:54] GM: I was going to say, I remember that vote.
[0:41:55] WS: That was the run up. That was the run up. Based on what I've been told, obtaining one of those used to be four now three licenses, was not too terribly difficult. It was all about getting amendment 100 passed.
[0:42:14] KM: What year did you open the casino?
[0:42:16] WS: 2020. October of 2020.
[0:42:19] KM: Five years. That's good. It didn't take long to build it.
[0:42:24] WS: We would have liked to – now I can say this. We would have liked to have done it sooner. But one of the issues we had was when we were getting ready to go to the point of a gross maximum price on the expansion, the problem was that's when the banks were getting a little hinky. Some of the smaller regional banks were beginning to show signs of stress and they tightened up credit significantly. We just backed off for a little while and decided, let's let the markets move itself out. Then we can get back into the capital markets to borrow the money that we needed in order to complete.
[0:43:04] KM: You borrowed money.
[0:43:05] WS: Yes, ma'am.
[0:43:06] KM: Did you not already have a casino?
[0:43:08] WS: We already had the casino from 2020. By the time all is said and done, about 70% of the construction cost of the expansion is through self-generated cash flows.
[0:43:20] KM: You just needed to borrow another 30%.
[0:43:21] WS: Correct.
[0:43:22] KM: You opened a casino in Oklahoma, was your first one.
[0:43:25] WS: The very first one was many, many years ago. It's called Quapaw Casino and is in an old broom factory. It's way past its prime and we're actually –
[0:43:34] KM: Where is that? In Oklahoma?
[0:43:35] WS: In Quapaw.
[0:43:36] KM: In Quapaw. On that reservation.
[0:43:38] WS: Correct. We're building a new one now. Down Street Casino and Resort, that one's a gaming floor, two towers of a hotel golf course, an event center. That one opened 17 years ago.
[0:43:50] KM: Where's that one?
[0:43:51] WS: That's in Quapaw as well, but it's way up on the border of where Oklahoma, Kansas, and Missouri come together.
[0:43:57] KM: Oh, so you're not on I-40.
[0:43:59] WS: Right off of it. Right off I-44.
[0:44:01] KM: When you drive down I-40 and it says, pull over and gamble, that’s you?
[0:44:06] WS: I-44.
[0:44:07] KM: Oh, I-44. Not I-40. Because you’re top up there about Missouri. There's another one on I-40 that I see off. Okay.
[0:44:15] GM: I think that's – No. I was thinking of the Cherokee, but that's not it.
[0:44:19] WS: There a lot of them up there.
[0:44:21] KM: Cherokees?
[0:44:22] GM: No, no. The casinos.
[0:44:23] WS: Oh, their casinos. Yeah.
[0:44:27] KM: The Comanches, were they really as mean as the movies say they were?
[0:44:30] WS: I'm not going to answer that question.
[0:44:33] KM: I like them. I can't get her to say anything bad about anybody, can I?
[0:44:36] GM: Well, you know.
[0:44:38] KM: Yes, they were. You've put it down in there. You borrowed 30%. You gambled on gambling in Pine Bluff. You weren't concerned. You were more interested in the Chief Saracen, and the history of Pine Bluff and your tribe. Did you even take into consideration that the town is going away? I mean, you've come back and saved Pine Bluff. It was once a thriving metropolis when the river was used to move goods up and down the river. Once the railroad was built, Pine Bluff started suffering.
[0:45:26] WS: We did do an economic impact analysis before committing to building the original casino in Pine Bluff.
[0:45:33] KM: It didn't scare you?
[0:45:35] WS: Well, it didn't scare any of my predecessors enough to not build it.
[0:45:39] KM: Who do you think your customers are?
[0:45:44] WS: Really, it's that, and don't quiz me on this. I'll flunk that quiz. But obviously, Jefferson County and the whole swath of counties all the way up here to Pulaski. There's a six-county region where the bulk of our patrons come from.
[0:45:57] KM: Farmers.
[0:46:00] WS: And people from Little Rock.
[0:46:01] GM: That's what Carl said. A lot of farmers, and then people coming down from Little Rock.
[0:46:05] KM: Well, you're not far from Little Rock. Will they send a limo to come and get me and take me down there and bring me back?
[0:46:10] WS: Yes, ma'am.
[0:46:12] KM: Do they offer that? Do they offer that?
[0:46:11] GM: Some might. It doesn’t have a driver.
[0:46:14] WS: If you ask nice. No, really. And you spend a lot of money.
[0:46:18] KM: Ah, there's a limo. How much you plan to spend? Really, and truly, could you – I guess, you – There's limo people up here in Little Rock that would definitely do. But I didn't know if the casino offered limos to Little Rock back and forth.
[0:46:31] WS: Not scheduled.
[0:46:32] KM: Your mission is to safeguard the assets of the tribe, not just for today, but for many generations. Your background is in finance. How solid is the Quapaw Nation?
[0:46:49] WS: I'll answer it from an accounting and finance standpoint.
[0:46:51] KM: Yes. Yes.
[0:46:54] WS: We're in great shape. I couldn't say that four or five years ago.
[0:47:00] KM: Is it the casinos?
[0:47:02] WS: Well, this is what it's from. It was, at that point in time, there had been insufficient focus on paying down the debt to show positive equity in not only Saracen, but also, downstream casino and resort. Those are two largest properties. As a result, they need to be safeguarded. They need capital improvements. They need to be maintained properly to continue attracting the right kinds of patrons that are happy to enjoy the hospitality experience that we have to offer. If you can't show positive equity, you can't show a positive cash flow for many, many years to come.
The way we think is it's I care about the current generation. I care about our elders. I care about our kids that are here. What about seven generations from now? In order for the Quapaw survive, we need to have the right resources available to continue preserving, protecting, and growing our culture, our traditions, and our language. That's what it's all about.
[0:48:09] KM: Culture, traditions, and language.
[0:48:12] WS: Because without those, there's nothing unique. That's what sets us apart.
[0:48:16] GM: Which is like you had there Oklahoma.
[0:48:18] WS: Correct, correct. We have to protect those assets to the best of our ability to ensure future survival. That's it.
[0:48:27] KM: I love it. I was actually disappointed when these football teams and sports teams quit using the word Indians. I was like, “No, no. Keep using it.” I felt like, that was an asset to keep the Indians in front of us and to remind us that they were once here. For some reason, people thought that was – Can you speak to that? Why was that insulting?
[0:48:50] WS: Absolutely. It is a misappropriation of culture.
[0:48:53] KM: Oh, there you go. That's what it is.
[0:48:55] WS: That's a fancy word. What does that really mean? What it means is, we lost the ability to tell our own narrative in our own way. Hollywood did that. Zane Gray, I love reading Zane Gray books. It stole pieces of our culture and made us all seem as if it was a single one. When the fact is, there are hundreds of native nations here in the US. We needed to take back and empower ourselves to tell our story in our way, as imperfect as it may be, but it's our story. It's only ours to tell. It's not for some sport franchise. I do have a side story to tell you, who did a really great job with that.
[0:49:40] KM: Who?
[0:49:40] WS: Were the Seminole Nation of Florida. You want to know what they did before the state? They said, you can keep using the war hoop and all that, continue being the Seminoles, you're going to pay us.
[0:49:53] GM: Oh, yeah.
[0:49:54] WS: We're going to tell you how, when, and where to utilize that.
[0:49:58] KM: That is a good way to do.
[0:49:59] WS: They took back your iconography. I mean, all of that. Seminole Nation of Florida.
[0:50:05] GM: Smart.
[0:50:05] WS: Brilliant move.
[0:50:05] GM: Yeah, very smart.
[0:50:07] KM: I just want to tell everybody, before we get our last gambling tips that we've been speaking today with Miss Wena Supernaw, the Head Chair of Oklahoma's Quapaw Nation, the tribe who once lived in Arkansas, and today has come back to its roots by founding the Saracen Casino in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, which by the way, was named after the Arkansas chief, Chief Saracen. Before we go, are there any gambling tips?
[0:50:28] WS: Not for me. I'm not allowed to gamble.
[0:50:30] KM: Are you not?
[0:50:31] WS: I hold a gaming license.
[0:50:33] GM: There we go.
[0:50:35] WS: Right. Right. Yeah.
[0:50:36] KM: That's just the truth of it. Interesting. You changed it from Saracen Casino to Saracen Casino and Resort. You're about to have a resort open. When is that scheduled?
[0:50:47] WS: Late this year.
[0:50:48] KM: Oh.
[0:50:50] WS: Mm-hmm.
[0:50:51] GM: That's exciting.
[0:50:51] WS: 320 rooms in a hotel tower, 1,600-seat event center. It's going to be about 400,000 more square feet under roof. It's going to be a big deal. We may see a phased opening, where not everything comes online at the same time, just to give us the opportunity to get the kinks worked out before we're at full capacity.
[0:51:15] KM: Isn't the goal, so now people from Little Rock can go down there and gamble and spend the night. Isn't there going to be a stage, or an entertainment venue that we can get good performers to come and perform?
[0:51:24] WS: That's right. That's the event center.
[0:51:26] KM: How big is the event center?
[0:51:27] WS: 1,600-seat.
[0:51:29] KM: That's not too big. That's a good size.
[0:51:31] WS: It is a good size. I'll liken it to a couple of other places, musical venues, primarily that I've been to that are about the same size. There's a venue in Tulsa, it's in Ketusa. That's about that same size. It's either 14 or 1,500 square feet seat. The sound quality is amazing. It's a wonderful setting with comfortable seats. That's what we're going to have. It'll be a flexible space. You don't necessarily have to have a 16 person need. The seating can be pulled back to be able to use it as a conference and event center, too.
[0:52:08] KM: Oh, really?
[0:52:08] WS: It's going to be a really flexible space.
[0:52:11] KM: Nice. Finish these sentences. The Quapaw and Osage people are?
[0:52:18] WS: Dhegiha Siouan.
[0:52:21] KM: Oh, perfect. The Saracen Casino and Resort hopes to?
[0:52:27] WS: Rebuild Pine Bluff.
[0:52:30] KM: Wena Supernaw's future plans are to?
[0:52:33] WS: Retire yet once again.
[0:52:39] KM: Those are some of the best answers I've ever gotten. Thank you, Wena Supernaw, Head of Oklahoma's Quapaw Nation, for sharing your story, the tribe story, and the story of Quapaws in Arkansas. We're glad they're back, with Saracen Casino and Resort in Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Wena, these are all the flags of all the states that the Quapaw were lived in. Oklahoma, Missouri, Louisiana, and Arkansas. That's a desk set for you of the flags.
[0:53:09] WS: Thank you so much.
[0:53:10] KM: You're welcome.
[0:53:10] WS: It’s beautiful.
[0:53:11] KM: I've enjoyed visiting with you. This show was recorded in the historical Taborian Hall in Downtown Little Rock, Arkansas, and made possible about the good works of flaggandbanner.com, Mr. Tom Wood, our audio engineer, Mr. Jonathan Hankins, our videographer, Miss Laura Devore, production manager, and my co-host, son Gray, Mr. Grady McCoy IV.
To our listeners, we would like to thank you for spending time with us. We hope you've heard, or learned something that's been inspiring, or enlightening, and that it, whatever it is, will help you up your business, your independence, or your life. I'm Kerry McCoy, and I'll see you next time on Up in Your Business. Until then, be brave and keep it up.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:53:54] GM: You've been listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. For links to resources you heard discussed on today's show, go to flagandbanner.com, select radio show, and choose today's guest. If you'd like to sponsor this show, or any show, contact me, Gray. That's gray@flagandbanner.com. Stay informed of exciting upcoming guests by subscribing to our YouTube channel or podcast, wherever you like to listen. Kerry's goal is simple. To help you live the American dream.
[END]
