June 9, 2017
Cain, is program director of community radio station KABF-FM 88.3 and host of KUAR's 52nd Street Jazz for more than three decades. He has been on the air in some capacity for "51 years and counting."
Cain got his start in the early 1960s working as an engineer and overnight disc jockey at Little Rock R&B station KALO-AM 1250. It was there that Cain developed his program niche. Cain said, “I featured material that you don’t hear normally. It was overnight radio that really gave me the opportunity to become a preservationist of sorts, a musicologist, a mixologist or whatever you want to call it."
Cain lived in Alabama and Georgia and worked in community theater and jazz preservation. He returned to Little Rock in 1984, about a month before KABF went on the air. He volunteered with the station, launching and hosting programs for several years, until the program director position opened up.
In 1986, Cain began hosting 52nd Street Jazz on KUAR. That began more than three decades of broadcasting on both stations. Initially he was hosting the program several nights a week. After being hired full-time at KABF, he scaled 52nd Street Jazz back to Sunday evenings, which he continues today.
Another passion for Cain is the preservation of African-American landmarks. After his return to Little Rock, and learning the once grand Mosaic Templars building was at risk of being torn down, he began reaching out to others and began the long process of trying to preserve the building which was built in 1913.
"I started by contacting Bill Worthen and the Historic Preservation Alliance. They advised me on how to start this campaign, so I worked about four years alone just trying to organize the society to save the building," Cain says.
The four-story building was purchased by the city in 1993, but sat abandoned for another decade before going to the Department of Arkansas Heritage. During the $8.6 million renovation the building caught fire and was completely destroyed. The new building, a complete replication of the previous burned building, was completed in 2006. Today it is known as the Mosaic Templars Cultural Center, a museum dedicated to telling the story of the state's African-American history.
"The fire was the catalyst that brought the whole thing to reality. Without that, we still would have been struggling for many years. After the fire, 24 hours later we were the in Capitol Rotunda talking to the governor and all those preservationists about how to change a restoration project into a new building project," Cain said.
The Mosaic Templars building is the sister building to the Taborian Hall which houses Arkansas’ FlagandBanner.com and the historic Dreamland Ballroom.
Up In Your Business is a Radio Show by FlagandBanner.com
UP IN YOUR BUSINESS WITH KERRY MCCOY - EPISODE 39 TRANSCRIPT - JOHN CAIN
[0:00:03.2] TB: Welcome to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. Be sure to stay tuned till the end of the show to hear how you can get a copy of this program and other helpful documents.
Now, it's time for Kerry McCoy to get all up in your business.
[0:00:16.8] KM: Thank you, Tim. I’m Kerry McCoy. Like Tim said, it’s time for me to get up in your business. For the next hour, my guest, John Cain, program director of KABF in Little Rock, Arkansas, and I, will be getting up in the business of how John began his radio career half a century ago about the John Cain Foundation and its mission. Maybe he’ll tell us some stories about growing up colored in the South in the 20th century.
Through our storytelling, you will hear how we maneuver the path of leadership, entrepreneurship, social change in pursuit of our dreams. My business experience began over 40 years ago when I founded Arkansas Flag & Banner. During the last four decades, Arkansas Flag & Banner has grown and morphed from door-to-door sales, to telemarketing, to mail order, and catalog sales. Now, relies heavily on the internet.
Each change in sale strategy required a change in company thinking and procedures. My confidence, leadership knowledge and my company grew. My initial $400 investment now produces nearly 4 million in annual sales. Each week on this show you’ll hear candid conversations between me and my guest about real world experiences on a variety of businesses and topics that I hope you’ll find interesting.
Running a business or organization is like so many things, it takes persistence, perseverance, and patience. I worked part-time jobs for nine years before Arkansas Flag & Banner grew enough to support just me. It’s now grown and expanded so much that to operate efficiently we require — Are you ready for this? A purchasing, manufacturing, graphics, shipping, technology, accounting, marketing, sales and customer service department, plus a retail store.
25 people make their living from working at Arkansas Flag & Banner. Before we start, I want to introduce the people at the table. We have Tim Bowen, our technician. Say hello, Tim.
[0:02:17.1] TB: Hello, Tim.
[0:02:18.6] KM: My guest today is the Little Rock legend, Mr. John Cain. A man who has seen a lot. The southern oppression of Jim Crow Laws, the Kennedy Cuban missile crisis, the Vietnam War. The formation of LBJs Great Society, which encompassed the Civil Rights movement, Watergate, and the .com boom.
Through all these, John’s career has stayed founded in radio. His job, his first job in 1960, was working as an engineer and overnight disc jockey at Little Rock’s R&B station; KALO, an AM station before the industries moved to FM.
This beginning led Mr. Cain to become a familiar voice in Central Arkansas for over half a century. Today, John is program director of the Community Radio Station, KABF FM 88.3 and host of KUAR 52nd Street Jazz 89 FM in Little Rock, Arkansas. In addition, he launched the John Cain Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to preserving African-American culture and history in Arkansas.
This foundation works closely with Arkansas Flag & Banner sister building on 9th Street; the Mosaic Templars Cultural Center, an African-American museum whose mission is aligned with John’s. Welcome to the table, the legendary, Mr. John Cain.
[0:03:49.7] JC: Kerry, thank you.
[0:03:51.5] KM: I told you you’d like that intro.
[0:03:52.9] JC: Thank you very much.
[0:03:54.4] KM: I am thrilled to have this opportunity to get your oral history. You have done and seen so much. Anytime during this interview that you feel like telling a story or sending in another direction, since you’re an old pro much more so than I am, then just feel free to take over the show. Before we dig into your life, tell us how you came to be the program director at KABF Public Radio.
[0:04:19.1] JC: Once I determined to do some positive things about things I never thought I could do things about before, but realizing that I had to change from commercial radio to public radio to do it. That was the beginning of a preservation initiative for me. I became a preservationist bit by bit. To start that, it was at KALO when I went and asked for a position not to be described as a top 40 disc jockey, but realizing there was an opportunity there because although it was a small station, it was one of the first signals in the city.
I think the first, about 1928, maybe ’29. AM station, a thousand watts in the daytime, 500 at night. Here I am midnight to 5 AM doing basically kind of programming that changed the perception of African-American, mostly me, because I could reach out and get to a product. People were looking for places to get that kind of stuff, [inaudible 0:05:22.6] or not, committing stuff that made it look like buffoons, but stuff that really opened up their souls and make and an impression. That’s how I really got into radio.
The artist was the focal point. It wasn’t about me. I’m basically an engineer, at night reading meters, but I got five hours on the radio. I put everything in there you could imagine; jazz, blues, rock, Captain Beefheart. I might play everything, but it changed the dynamics of top 40 radio.
Before that, there were no ratings for nighttime radio. After Sonny Philips in KAAY and those guys came on and they cut back on the power at sunset, they assume that there were no audiences out there. I wound up with captured audiences; nurses, to professionals working at night, people out and about at night.
[0:06:20.9] KM: Why would they cut back their signal at night? Is it to save money or something?
[0:06:24.9] JC: There was no interference between the AM signals as they were basically digitizing for where we are now; FM, internet. That was all coming. You could see it coming.
[0:06:37.7] KM: In the 60s you could already see it coming.
[0:06:39.4] JC: I could see it coming.
[0:06:40.3] KM: In the radio industry.
[0:06:41.2] JC: In the radio industry. To have the first signal with a big audience that wanted things differently than just the mundane everyday thing, it was the right place, right time. They just fell into place, Kerry. I fell in there. Bam! There I am.
[0:07:00.4] KM: Do you think you fell in there because of your hard work, because you are not limiting, yourself limiting thoughts? Everybody that I interview that’s an entrepreneur says, “Oh! I was lucky.” I know that is part of it, but a lot of it is ambition or a willingness to just do something. You started as an engineer.
[0:07:20.5] JC: Yeah.
[0:07:22.2] KM: If somebody today was saying, “I want to get into radio,” and they’re young. Would you say just get a job at a radio station wherever it is?
[0:07:30.6] JC: Get a job, whatever it is. You have to begin somewhere in it to learn what takes to make it all work. Yeah, all those things you said about initiative thinking. I grew up with radio. I didn’t grew up with TV this time and ages.
As one of those people that listen to radio, the family listen to radio. We extended storytelling. What I had on my side was a father who fought the second war, but he was a terrific storytelling. He could hold you on a spellbound. I’m just telling you about something that happened to him down on the street, and so that was just an extension of this whole thing. Like, “Hey, I can do that.”
[0:08:14.9] KM: You didn’t story tell.
[0:08:16.3] JC: No, I’ve never been a storyteller.
[0:08:19.8] KM: Although you sound like one right now, doesn’t he?
[0:08:21.1] JC: Well, I’ve experienced a lot and that sort of made me aware of how you conversate.
[0:08:29.0] KM: Did you say I have a spiritual life. What did you say?
[0:08:32.9] JC: It made me really aware what I could do with thinking things through and getting a focus on how would I present myself to a job situation. I wanted a life change. I’m in the south. Not many opportunities. I grew in the country 12 miles from here, Wrightsville.
I just wanted to come in and be a different person. I was a quick study, I always have been. In school I liked civics because it gave me a sense of how business economics worked, the kind of politics that go with that stuff. From that, I wanted to explore the word. I was about ready to run away home.
[0:09:20.4] KM: What age?
[0:09:21.3] JC: I just pestered my mom and dad until they just signed off the paper and I became a sailor at 17.
[0:09:28.8] KM: No way. Why is that not in the bio you sent me that you were a sailor. That would have been great to know. Where? For who? Not the NAVY.
[0:09:37.8] JC: Yes.
[0:09:38.9] KM: Oh! I see
[0:09:39.2] JC: United States NAVY.
[0:09:39.9] KM: They let you go into the NAVY.
[0:09:42.2] JC: At 17.
[0:09:43.2] KM: How long did you stay in the NAVY?
[0:09:44.2] JC: Just four years.
[0:09:46.1] KM: You saw the world.
[0:09:46.4] JC: It opened me up to everything.
[0:09:49.2] KM: You decided to come back to Arkansas. What did you see in your travels as a NAVY personnel? What did you see that you think changed the way you think about life?
[0:10:01.1] JC: I saw people in worst situations than I was, and I thought I was in a bad situation, but getting out into the world changed my whole perception. It also made me focus on, “Maybe I should be trying to help them,” those kinds of things. It eventually led to this — I was seaman in the NAVY. You know what a seaman is? I was actually a boatswain mate —
[0:10:25.1] KM: A what?
[0:10:25.4] JC: Boatswain mate. I ran boats. I ran boats for the officers. To be a boatswain mate, you got to know all of the things that seaman do. You have to practice it. Like painting, rope tying. We don’t call them rope. We call them line in the NAVY.
[0:10:41.2] KM: Halyard. Isn’t that right?
[0:10:42.8] JC: Mm-hmm. For the big — When you’re tying your ship up. That’s a big 8 inch line. In three and a half years, I went from a person that didn’t know anything about the NAVY, although I had read a lot of books. I read all the books about the sea, Moby Dick, you name it, all of them. Three years before the match, I wanted to be a sailor.
[0:11:05.9] KM: Because of the adventure. Not because you loved to swim, but because of the adventure.
[0:11:10.5] JC: That’s how I want to see — My dad telling me these stories. He fought in the 2nd World War. They built the Air Force bases in the tropics; Okinawa, Kwajalein. Black units were attached to the CB units, the constructional battalions that went in there. Scooped out — They work with tools in one hand and a gun in another.
[0:11:33.5] KM: Wow! I bet he’s got stories.
[0:11:34.3] JC: Oh, man! It was awesome when he tell us those stories. I wound up in a similar situation. The war wasn’t a World War when I got into it.
[0:11:42.8] KM: Was it in the Vietnam War?
[0:11:44.7] JC: No. I went before the Vietnam War.
[0:11:45.9] KM: I was going to say, I bet you were right before the Vietnam War.
[0:11:47.5] JC: Right before Vietnam.
[0:11:49.1] KM: You lucky thing.
[0:11:49.8] JC: Yeah. See? Lucky.
[0:11:52.7] KM: Oh! He is lucky. It’s your spiritual upbringing.
[0:11:57.9] JC: It was kind of like a police action for me and stuff. It wasn’t just all out war. I didn’t really get shot at a lot, but I heard big shields going over where I said, “We have to have running boat for officers, taking them from ship to shore or wherever they had to go.”
My two duties were charge duties running the captain’s gig first on a tanker, AO51. The tankers are named after rivers. I was on the USS Ashtabula. The Ashtabula is an Ohio River. One of the dirtiest rivers back in the 60s if you remember. It actually caught a fire one time.
[0:12:35.6] KM: On the river?
[0:12:36.3] JC: Yes.
[0:12:36.9] KM: The water caught fire.
[0:12:38.3] JC: Yeah. It’s that polluted. Cleveland Ohio, darling.
[0:12:41.0] KM: Wow!
[0:12:42.7] JC: Anyway, I was on the ships that came before the super tankers that hold triple the load we could hold. Being a seaman on deck, we ran winches that put the hoses over for the aircraft carriers, the cruisers, who ever came .We fueled at sea. We didn’t fuel in port. We’re out in the sea rolling and doing that, and crashing stuff, and breaking stuff. It is terrific for me.
[0:13:10.1] KM: Terrific? That sounds awful.
[0:13:13.2] JC: It wasn’t a war. I wasn’t in a —
[0:13:15.6] KM: I don’t care if it was a war. That’s still sounds awful. All right. This is a great place to take a break. When we come back, we’re going to talk about John’s life afterwards. We’re going to hear about his career in radio. What he did after he got out of the NAVY. About what his nonprofit is doing to preserve African-American history. Hopefully, get him to tell us some stories about the cultural revolution of the 1960s and 70s.
You’re listening to Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy. I’m speaking today with KABF’s program director, Mr. John Cain. John, you already told me you were born in Wrightsville, Arkansas, but you haven’t lived in Arkansas all your life. There was a time you did community theater and jazz preservation. I think I read Alabama and Georgia.
[0:14:17.6] JC: Birmingham where I did most of it, darling. Yeah, Birmingham, Alabama.
[0:14:22.8] KM: I want to tell our listeners that he calls me sweetie baby and darling every time you talk to him. He has a hip cool cat from — I’m waiting for him to say groovy, from the 60s. If anybody wants to write down how many times he calls me darling and email it to me at firstname.lastname@example.org, and your t-shirt size, I will send you an Up Yours t-shirt from Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy, because he calls me sugar and honey and darling and baby. So far, I think three times. That is your first tip for the day.
All right, you had already gone into radio in the 1960s at — What do you call it? KALO.
[0:15:01.5] JC: KALO. Yeah.
[0:15:03.6] KM: KALO. Not KOKY.
[0:15:04.6] JC: Not KOKI. I never went to KOKY.
[0:15:06.3] KM: I listen to KOKY and I listen to Bicker Street.
[0:15:09.5] JC: I did too. I love Bicker Street too, but KOKY didn’t have much intellectual stuff from my head. My head was getting like, “I don’t care.”
[0:15:16.1] KM: You’re a good reader and you’ve seen the world. Really, KOKY was more intellectual — KALO was more intellectual. That’s interesting. I wonder why I didn’t listen to it. You started there, but you left and went off and did community theater and jazz preservation. Tell us a little bit about why that happened.
[0:15:37.3] JC: I’m at KALO. We have one of the top African-American radio people that grew up in Pine Bluff, Larry Haze, returned from Milwaukee and took over KALO as general manager. He stayed at a couple of three years and as he was exiting, he was going to Birmingham, Alabama to bring WENN programming up to what he call Afrocentric. He was using this term long before.
[0:16:07.5] KM: Afrocentric.
[0:16:08.4] JC: Yeah. Because of the host on radio, the top 40 jocks did, there wasn’t any room for real cultured stuff. He asked me to go because as he was coming in, I’m late night. He is the first person that come in every day. I’m working six nights a week. I’m going in at midnight, getting off at 6 AM, go home, get a couple of hours of sleep and go to work. Larry Haze comes in. He is the early morning drive host.
Before marketing and ratings were done, they were taking overnight things. Immediately, when I got that slot and changed the format to something that people really appreciated —
[0:16:54.2] KM: Just say change the world. Just go ahead and say the change the world.
[0:16:56.6] JC: Change the world. He realized that. As he’s moving to Alabama, he said, “Will you come with me?” I said, “Only if I got a slot for jazz. It has to be all night. I do the programming.” We made that agreement. That’s how I got there.
When I got there, the community theater was big, black bar community theater down there. A lot of people living in Buffalo and East New York and around were from Alabama, were coming back home. We had actors, musicians. These guys out here working the major venues. They were in the process of developing jazz hall of fame. I became part of the promotion of that on the radio helping to produce jazz shows. Basically, that’s at a paradigm shift, I guess you want to say it.
[0:17:50.8] KM: Did you didn’t stay. You came back to Little Rock.
[0:17:52.8] JC: I stayed 8 years.
[0:17:55.0] KM: 8 years.
[0:17:54.8] JC: 8 years. It was 8 years. I got community theater and all that preservation stuff.
[0:18:00.3] KM: Did you do any acting?
[0:18:02.7] JC: I was chairman of the board of the black bar theater. I did basically fundraising —
[0:18:05.2] KM: You’re always the chairman of the board somewhere.
[0:18:09.4] JC: I did a lot of fundraising. I was good at producing, because I just worked hard to get good shows and good musicians gigs that were not there before. That jazz community started to grow, man it just impacted all of the other art disciplines. When I went down there, Kerry, I had the choice of living in the city, Birmingham proper, or the Verb. What I did, darling, I rode into the city every night, five miles on a bicycle.
[0:18:38.7] KM: Just like you are today. Why did you do that?
[0:18:43.4] JC: I had to prove a couple of things to myself that I’m going to Birmingham, Alabama and I really need to be just dedicated. I couldn’t rely on somebody else. I have to do this the way I could do it. I know I can do it and I just have to prove it to the people. That was the easy part. They did become overwhelming as I started to interact with a lot of different disciplines, artists, sculptors, so I had to change in my way of going to work. I’m getting up at 10:30 at night, I’m going to work.
[0:19:18.0] KM: On a bike.
[0:19:18.9] JC: On a bike.
[0:19:19.5] KM: Why not a car?
[0:19:21.4] JC: I had to prove that I could get there there. I wanted — I can ride a bicycle. I rode a bicycle for all the years I was a kid. I used to ride from Wrightsville to Alexander.
[0:19:30.1] KM: You’re the original millennial.
[0:19:32.6] JC: I just had to prove it to myself. It’s not like I got to get there —
[0:19:38.7] KM: You weren’t afraid. It’s so late at night in Birmingham, Alabama, and they’re not exactly really to black people down there.
[0:19:45.0] JC: I’m a night person. Yeah, I actually live on both sides of the clock.
[0:19:51.4] KM: The clock.
[0:19:52.0] JC: When I say the clock, I’d rather be up at night doing things when I got myself just alone, I can focus. I’m not interrupted. I think things through.
[0:20:03.5] KM: At night. You’re a night person.
[0:20:04.8] JC: I’m a night person. I’ve always been like that.
[0:20:08.1] KM: That’s nice.
[0:20:09.2] JC: I just found a way to channel all of that into I could do this myself.
[0:20:14.9] KM: You decided to come back to Little Rock. Why?
[0:20:16.7] JC: I come back to Little Rock on a preservation project for the Mosaic Templars Cultural Center.
[0:20:21.3] KM: In 1984? You came back that long ago?
[0:20:23.9] JC: Yes.
[0:20:24.3] KM: For the Mosaic Templars?
[0:20:25.9] JC: I started the Mosaic Templars project one year before I left Alabama. I’m still in Birmingham. I’m calling the Preservation Alliance up here to be a warning to those people about what did I do about saving that building. My sons who were still here were writing me and telling me, “Dad, they’re cutting those sick 30 across — you know that ditch thing. Tearing it down.” They would send me photos.
I left in ’76. I stayed until ’84. I come back about a month and a half ago. This station went on there.
[0:20:59.5] KM: Then you started here as a volunteer.
[0:21:01.6] JC: Started as a volunteer. I said, “I’ll help you out man, because I know the demographics, the people.” I said, “But I don’t do top quality radio.” They talked to him, “Well, we need this.” I’m not that guy.
[0:21:12.2] KM: What did you for a living?
[0:21:13.8] JC: Worked.
[0:21:14.3] KM: Where.
[0:21:14.3] JC: Record shops, peaches.
[0:21:17.0] KM: Oh, peaches. I can’t believe we’ve been hanging out before this.
[0:21:24.0] JC: Yeah. They had a chain. I also did the same kind of thing in Birmingham. The chain was in Atlanta, headquarters.
[0:21:31.4] KM: You didn’t go back straight into radio. You did pretty quick. You got a job at KUAR, didn’t you?
[0:21:35.9] JC: Yeah.
[0:21:37.3] KM: Doing —
[0:21:37.6] JC: Jazz.
[0:21:39.2] KM: Doing jazz again for them, and you’re still doing that thing.
[0:21:41.1] JC: I’m still doing it. Yeah.
[0:21:42.6] KM: How long you’ve been doing that? 30 years I guess.
[0:21:44.6] JC: Okay. We’ve been on air since 1984 here. I probably went there in ’86.
[0:21:50.0] KM: That’s exactly 31 years.
[0:21:51.8] JC: Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[0:21:52.7] KM: Mm-hmm. We’re both thinking about that.
[0:21:54.6] JC: Yeah.
[0:21:56.1] KM: You said about your early days on radio and I quote, “I featured material that you don’t hear normally. It was overnight radio that really gave me the opportunity to become a preservationist of sorts, a musicologist, a mixologist, or whatever you want to call it.”
When I think of a preservationist, I think of buildings, like you said the Mosaic Templar. Are you thinking about music or are you in preservationist for buildings too?
[0:22:23.9] JC: Everything that is —
[0:22:25.9] KM: All that you want to say.
[0:22:26.1] JC: There’s an art, a craft discipline, because that’s what it is. It’s a vehicle that anybody that want to dedicate themselves to a specific part of that. You make it work for yourself. This is your dedication. I just embrace it all.
[0:22:45.4] KM: You have a specific genre in music you like, and I think it’s jazz.
[0:22:49.7] JC: It’s jazz.
[0:22:51.4] KM: You’ve seen — You’re from an old school jazz, not Kenny G.
[0:22:55.7] JC: Not cool jazz, or whatever they called.
[0:22:59.2] KM: Smooth jazz.
[0:23:00.1] JC: Yeah, smooth jazz, because it is not intertwined the errors and timelines of jazz itself.
[0:23:09.1] KM: The originals.
[0:23:10.6] JC: The originals. The older musicians don’t really accept that as a new genre.
[0:23:16.5] KM: That’s like country music. There’s an old school country music and then there’s the new country music. If you’re a purist, you like the old country music.
[0:23:24.2] JC: Yeah. I became an audio pal purist kind of person.
[0:23:28.1] KM: You’ve seen a lot of changes in radio. What did a studio look like back then when you first started compared to the day?
[0:23:33.9] JC: Our studio, or —
[0:23:34.8] KM: No. All studios. Did the headsets look like these? Did the boards look like these? Has it changed much?
[0:23:41.6] JC: Yeah. The boards didn’t have sliders. They had knobs. You turn the volume up. Things like that. They were not composites like these materials are now. They were American made.
[0:23:57.3] KM: These are all probably made in —
[0:23:58.3] JC: Metal. Yeah, these are made everywhere. When a slider goes out here, you can’t repair it. You usually could do that metal to metal with spray, contact spray. Clean it all. If you do that now, it welds together. So that’s about a whole damn new part.
[0:24:15.8] KM: Speaking like an engineer, plus we’ve got call-in. Did you have call-in back then? I think so.
[0:24:21.4] JC: Yeah. Yeah, we had callers. You did everything. We did just like we record the transmitter reader. I had a phone connected to the transmitter.
[0:24:30.6] KM: It really hadn’t changed a lot. The industry really is one of the industries that hasn’t changed a lot except for we use computers now. How would you navigate or work the board if you didn’t have a computer, because Tim looks at the computer all the time.
[0:24:44.7] JC: Me being old school, and if I’m not hands-on, I’m not going to look at a new attachment that you got to learn how it works. I know how practically to get a sound out of any channel without a computer. To me, that’s preservation too. I refuse to let go of it because there are sound quality that really holds people’s attention.
[0:25:11.9] KM: It’s a skill when you do it that way.
[0:25:13.5] JC: It’s a skill. Yeah. If you don’t know what good sound quality is, you’re not getting it. You know what I’m saying? That’s why I avoid it.
[0:25:24.9] KM: You won’t even answer your emails for two days. I know that’s right.
[0:25:31.2] JC: Yeah. If a label or a person send me something, said, “Oh, it’s MP3.” I said, “I don’t want it. I want the hard copy because I can do a lot of things with hard copy.”
[0:25:41.2] KM: Are you talking about CD or DVD?
[0:25:43.7] JC: Yeah, the digital stuff. Yeah. They send us out, “Oh, I got this great.” I said, “Man, I’m not going to use it.”
[0:25:51.5] KM: What do you mean a hard copy? You can’t get a record up here.
[0:25:53.5] JC: No. Hard copy is CD. A CD as supposed to an MP3.
[0:25:58.8] KM: Oh, I get you.
[0:26:00.4] JC: They send them from their phones, which don’t have the quality. I’m looking for sound quality, because I don’t want to spend time listening to something that sounds bad to my ear.
[0:26:08.6] KM: Oh!
[0:26:10.3] JC: I’m not going to recommend it to Tim. I’m going to say, “Man, send us the hard copy.”
[0:26:14.3] KM: I see what you’re saying. I didn’t realize that. That’s changed. You don’t have records up here spinning. That has changed.
[0:26:21.3] JC: Yeah, that has changed.
[0:26:21.7] KM: We found a change. There’s no turntables with records spinning, although I bet there are some stations going back to that now.
[0:26:27.5] JC: They are.
[0:26:28.0] TB: There are shows here on KABF where the DJs bring turntables up here.
[0:26:31.9] JC: Turntables are in here.
[0:26:33.9] TB: World War Room. They bring their own turntables.
[0:26:36.4] KM: Who does?
[0:26:36.9] TB: Tuesday night show, World War Room.
[0:26:39.2] KM: Interesting.
[0:26:40.3] JC: We got a turntable sitting back there, dual turntables. Donated. Probably worth a thousand dollars, but we won’t put them in here because they would ripped up, the rapper is doing that. Man! That’s hard on equipment.
[0:26:57.0] KM: I see, because doing that is scratching the record.
[0:26:59.5] JC: Scratching the record. That’s what it is. Scratching the record, which makes it bad. I would really listen to a scratch on a record that’s been played 10,000 times that somebody really cared about.
[0:27:10.5] KM: Right. This is a great spot to take a break. When we come back, we’re going to learn about John Cain’s foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to preserving African-American history and get him to tell us some stories about the culture revolution in the 1960s and 70s. You’re listening to Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy. My guest is the legendary, Mr. John Cain, program director of KABF Radio in Little Rock, Arkansas.
You’re listening to Up In Your Business with Kerry McCoy. I’m speaking today with KABF program director, Mr. John Cain. John, you kind of already told us that you came back here to save the Mosaic Templar. Maybe that’s why you started your foundation, but tell us how the John Cain Foundation came to be.
[0:28:02.0] JC: Okay. First, there was a preservation society that did a campaign work for the building. I didn’t put the foundation together, except for two years ago.
[0:28:13.2] KM: Two years ago from right now?
[0:28:14.6] JC: Mm-hmm. Here’s what I was told when I come in — As I try to convince people, “Come on and help us do this.” They said, “Well, you need a foundation.” I said, “You got it exactly back. We want a society of people.” If I’m putting together a foundation that means I got to buy the building. We can’t buy the building. We want the programs and that protocol and procedural stuff that make it put to that perpetuity window. As long as somebody is working on it, stay positive, the building is there.
[0:28:47.2] KM: The building being the Mosaic Templar Cultural Center.
[0:28:49.5] JC: Mosaic Templar. The foundation was put together because in the legislation carrier that made it a museum and cultural center, it was a part of the legislation that call it business incubator.
[0:29:03.3] KM: Oh, small business incubator.
[0:29:05.2] JC: Small business incubator. That’s the foundation’s initiative. In other words, we’re actually trying to recreate what John Bush and his partner, Mr. Keith, did.
[0:29:15.3] KM: In 19 —
[0:29:15.7] JC: In 1800s.
[0:29:17.5] KM: Late 1800s.
[0:29:18.8] JC: Yeah, when that came together. We’re actually going chapter and verse about, “Okay, we need to do it as close to —
[0:29:27.0] KM: You mean reading the old book that he originally — Chapter and verse, meaning reading his old book and how he —
[0:29:32.3] JC: How they put the business together and stuff like that.
[0:29:35.0] KM: You’re recreating his vision.
[0:29:36.1] JC: Recreating the vision.
[0:29:37.3] KM: Oh, I love it.
[0:29:38.6] JC: On the way to getting the building restored, of course, the big part, it was a tragic fire we had which destroyed the original building. That was so much — Like that building you got now. I know the building. I’ve been in it a lot —
[0:29:52.5] KM: The Taborian Hall.
[0:29:53.5] JC: Yeah. I feel things that a lot of people never been in it before don’t feel. You know what I’m saying, darling?
[0:29:58.7] KM: It’s very spiritual.
[0:30:00.2] JC: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. To lose that building, devastated, the society, but we’re able to hold it together. The thing that kept it together because we had real historians, real educator people that knew people, talk people and the kids and they became business people, had businesses in 9th street. We had a million dollar policy. Lloyd’s of London.
[0:30:25.6] KM: On the building before it burned.
[0:30:26.6] JC: On the building before it burned. We just called a meeting, got the legislators together. Went to the rotunda there and asked the government legislator match this for us so we can build a new building. We went from restoration to a new building. That’s what had actually happened.
[0:30:46.9] KM: You had feeder money because of your insurance claim, which you probably wouldn’t have gotten before. In some ways, it was a blessing even though you lost the original —
[0:30:54.9] JC: Yeah, we lost a lot. Yeah.
[0:30:57.9] KM: Yeah, because if you walk up stairs to the Dreamland Ballroom, your skin will crawl. The hair on my arms goes up. Not everybody does that to you.
[0:31:07.0] JC: First time we went in the building, we went in with May Construction Company.
[0:31:09.7] KM: Which building? Mine or yours?
[0:31:12.1] JC: The Mosaic Templars Building. The original building. It was dirty. What really prompted me to start a process was I knew what went on in that building before I left and went to Birmingham and Atlanta. When I come back, I just took what I do and start organizing. The reason why because I worked in the building when they had a machine shop on the first floor down there.
[0:31:37.1] KM: Oh, at Mosaic Templars?
[0:31:38.6] JC: Yes.
[0:31:38.7] KM: Yes, I remember that.
[0:31:39.6] JC: They had the machine shop. The building across the alley from it used to have all the auto things before Autozone came.
[0:31:48.3] KM: Auto Parts.
[0:31:48.9] JC: Auto Parts. They have all the way up to the third floor, so we go up and pull our orders. They said you can’t go in to the — We don’t want you on the third floor. We go up to the second floor. I went up there and saw all of that. It just brought me straight to the Taborian Hall. I used to go in there as a kid, go upstairs the waiters club late night, where all the waiters are. That’s where it was happening, the music and stuff. It just made me really work hard. It took four years now once I hit the ground here.
[0:32:21.5] KM: After you got the million dollars, it took four years?
[0:32:23.2] JC: No. After I come back from Birmingham, it took me four years to really organize people — Come on and help us. That’s how we got our 501(c)(3). We got the right people who wanted to see that happen. That’s how we did it.
[0:32:37.4] KM: That’s takes some organizational skill right there.
[0:32:39.5] JC: We were timely in that backyard burger wanted to come in from Memphis, buy the building and tear it down. When they did that, we made a call to action. David Jones with [inaudible 0:32:51.2] and Company — My gosh! I can’t think his name now, but he worked —
[0:32:56.8] KM: Bill Worthman.
[0:32:57.1] JC: Not Bill Worthman. He owned the building.
[0:33:02.1] KM: Oh, he owned the Mosaic Templars.
[0:33:03.4] JC: He actually owned the building. We got a partnership agreement with him and the city to help the society save the building.
[0:33:12.8] KM: That was nice of him.
[0:33:14.2] JC: Yeah. Actually. We asked him. We didn’t have office space. The city gave us office space at Markham and Maine.
[0:33:21.1] KM: Is that the Arkansas Heritage Building? Was it the Arkansas — Because I know right now it’s under — Your building is —
[0:33:29.5] JC: In the Department of Heritage.
[0:33:31.2] KM: Yes, because your email say Department of Heritage.
[0:33:35.5] JC: Yeah. We didn’t have office space. Tommy Jameson was instrumental in that once we got the top architect in the state, fishery. We felt good about all of these developments. We celebrated a bunch to ourselves. There wasn’t much you could do. What’s the next thing we do? That’s how we rolled that thing out.
[0:33:59.0] KM: Organizing people for a building is hard. It’s not like sick children or starving children, it’s a building with — It’s very important to save but it doesn’t quite pull at your heartstrings like some other nonprofits do. I really admire you for doing that. What made you decide to do the John Cain Foundation two years ago?
[0:34:23.0] JC: The John Cain Foundation wants to do this incubator business breakout, so developing programs to help startup businesses.
[0:34:32.3] KM: So you can get grants. You had to start a foundation so that you can get grants. You’re going to apply for grants. Who’s doing that? Are you doing those? Are you applying for the grant yourself?
[0:34:39.2] JC: We got it. We’re 501 (c)(3) officially.
[0:34:41.5] KM: Who’s applying for the grants to start these small businesses? Do you fill them out?
[0:34:45.1] JC: We got a grant writer — Yeah, on specific program things and we’re looking at the disadvantaged kids as a way to really —
[0:34:54.2] KM: In Little Rock?
[0:34:54.5] JC: In Little Rock and the entire state.
[0:34:56.2] KM: In the state of Arkansas.
[0:34:56.8] JC: Yeah. As a way to develop programs because they don’t have opportunities. They’re in bad situations. How do you help them? Let’s get a program.
[0:35:07.5] KM: Most of them, a lot of kids don’t realize — Because I’ll do tours sometimes with kids. One of the things they love to hear about me is nobody really has a plan and they can do it too. I think poverty children have limited visions for themselves. That’s one of the things I love to talk about is don’t have those limiting thoughts. You’re just as good as everybody else. If you work hard and go to the right places, even if you get a job as an engineer, you may end up being a radio personality that changes music in America today like you. Who knew being an engineer you were going to change the world?
[0:35:57.3] JC: You know, they can’t think like that. They look at things — If I not had good mentors —
[0:36:04.5] KM: Your parents.
[0:36:05.3] JC: My parents, starting with them, and then meeting other people. I was put in programs as a kid in school. Charles Bussy put me in the junior deputy sheriff program. I was a junior deputy chair and not a boy scout. I actually was the chief of our little junior deputy sheriff in Wrightsville. We come up here to the courthouse once a month, have a meeting in the chambers, whatever person that’s in there; judge, and legal person. Those mentors showed me how to pull this stuff I’m reading about civics together. How to do things. I didn’t really ask people a lot of questions. I thought I had it figured in mind. I would just start something.
[0:36:49.6] KM: Just start. That’s the key. That’s start. If you’re lying on the couch, you’re never going to start. Before we take a break, and then I want to come back and talk about race relationship in America, a very sensitive subject, but you and I are friends. This is safe place. I’m a safe person. You’re a safe person. We’re going to talk about it. We don’t have a lot of time. You are invited to the National Museum of African-American History and Culture, and I love their slogan; A People’s Journey, A Nation’s Story. Is that not great?
[0:37:16.2] JC: Yeah.
[0:37:16.4] KM: Did you love going up there?
[0:37:18.0] JC: Yeah.
[0:37:19.4] KM: How did you get invited? Just because you’re a rock star?
[0:37:21.0] JC: Well, here’s what happened. Working with the University, Central Arkansas, fine arts department and Annie Abrahams, we wanted to celebrate Annie Abrahams’ birthday.
[0:37:32.4] KM: She was one of the Central Arkansas nine —
[0:37:34.2] JC: Yeah. Not now, but one of the commissioners that made the thing apart. Got it into the —
[0:37:41.6] KM: Wasn’t she a central high school — One of the nine?
[0:37:43.8] JC: Ah-ah.
[0:37:44.6] KM: I’m sorry. I thought she was.
[0:37:45.8] JC: Not Annie. Annie is about four years older than I am.
[0:37:49.5] KM: Oh, okay. Nevermind.
[0:37:49.6] JC: She’s about 85. She’d be 85 in September.
[0:37:52.1] KM: Good. He told us how he old he was. He’s 81. I did the math.
[0:37:57.9] JC: It was that thing that got us focused on, “Okay, they’re going to have a real thing.” We knew that they were working on this building, getting funding for it. It was a long time to make it come to reality. We said, “Okay, let’s take a bus load of Arkansans up there.” We got with Pat Ort Rogers and start organizing. Bus trip, lodging, all that stuff. To see the museum itself, I’ve probably seen more ephemera, that’s what they call exhibits before it becomes —
[0:38:38.4] KM: The finished display?
[0:38:39.5] JC: Yeah.
[0:38:41.1] KM: What do you call it?
[0:38:42.1] JC: Ephemera.
[0:38:42.9] KM: Oh, okay. I learned a new word today.
[0:38:44.8] JC: Yeah. It’s not a history piece yet until it gets in a place to be viewed and analyzed. That’s what they’ve got in these departments where they keep their artifacts. It’s Ephemera in the buildings where they store it. It’s on exhibit when they bring it out.
[0:39:05.9] KM: Oh, nice. Thank you, John, for educating us.
[0:39:08.6] JC: I learned so much, it was incredible. I never thought I would be learning about preservation and I was actually doing it. It’s weird, darling. Seriously.
[0:39:19.0] KM: There’s another darling.
[0:39:21.9] JC: It wasn’t like the crazy weird, but I’m in this place where I’m never really thought I would be just with what I knew.
[0:39:32.6] KM: We’re going to take the fastest break ever on the planet, and when we come back we’re going to talk about the cultural revolution and Mr. John Cain’s opinion on the State of Affairs of the African-Community Day today. You’re listening to Up In Your Business. My guest is the legendary Mr. John Cain, program director at KABF Radio in Little Rock, Arkansas.
Kerry McCoy, I’m speaking today with KABF’s program director, Mr. John Cain. You’ve seen a lot. I was going to ask you now to tell us how old you are, but you already did. You’re 81, I gathered. Right?
[0:40:16.5] JC: Right. Getting close.
[0:40:18.0] KM: Oh, you’re 80.
[0:40:19.2] JC: I’m 80.
[0:40:19.7] KM: You’re like a millennial though. You walk everywhere. You ride the bus. You’re an 80-year-old millennial. You live downtown. You’re living the life that all millennials want to live these days. You’ve always been hip, darling.
[0:40:35.6] JC: Thank you.
[0:40:36.8] KM: You’re welcome. You’ve always been hip. You really have.
[0:40:40.3] JC: I learned it from nature, Kerry. I’m a naturalist. You want to call it that. I grew up what we called a country now. I didn’t grow up on a plantation. I was poor, but I worked all the time so I had money in my pocket. Honest money.
[0:40:57.7] KM: Honest money.
[0:40:58.6] JC: Honest money. I worked for it. I didn’t do something crazy just to get it. I had my grandfather as a mentor, mother —
[0:41:06.7] KM: Where’s your father?
[0:41:07.4] JC: He passed in — Dad passed in ’70, 1970. My mother passed four years ago. She died in ’94.
[0:41:17.4] KM: How old was she? Oh, she was 94 when she passed.
[0:41:23.1] JC: She lived 40 plus years after my dad passed in 1970. He passed on a stroke.
[0:41:28.8] KM: No wonder you got such good genes.
[0:41:30.0] JC: I’m a lucky guy.
[0:41:31.8] KM: You keep saying that. Just keep saying it brother, that’s what makes you lucky right there. Okay, I’m going to give a warning. For the next few minutes you and I are going to have a candid conversation, an uncomfortable conversation with some. This is a warning to our listeners. Anybody that knows me all knows that I’m a safe person. This is a safe place. This is not to say that everyone has to agree with me or John. After all, this is America and everybody gets to have their opinion. Let’s start with what I think is the hardest question first and then we’ll lighten up.
Something people don’t like to talk about is racism, and it goes both ways. Find the Taborian Hall, I found out the hard way. I’m the white girl that bought a significantly important African-American building. I just want to say that it kind of hurts my feelings.
[0:42:20.0] JC: I wouldn’t worry about that. You’re doing the right thing. If not for you, Kerry, that building would not be there.
[0:42:27.6] KM: See, that’s what I want someone to tell me. Thank you, John. You and I are both interviewed in the Dreamland documentary that’s airing on PBS, and I see you every week at this radio station. We have become friends and sometime talk and sometime rant about black and white relations in America today. Our discussions often in with you saying, “We can’t forget our history lest we repeat it.” Me saying, “White people want to quit feeling guilty about what our ancestors did and move on.” Can you speak to that?
[0:42:59.0] JC: Yeah, I can. Racism is a many layered thing. It begins with tribalism, which becomes eventually classism, that whole thing of dividing people up. People want certain things. Once I really got the definition down of what this is, instead of hating, I just decided to embrace everything, the things that I don’t like, I just get away from them. I’m looking for the positive.
[0:43:32.6] KM: You really are.
[0:43:34.7] JC: Rather than be fighting with people about my rights, I’m just going to do what I think is the right thing. I can embrace it all and make a decision that way not have popular opinion change my way of living. When I say that, I mean that’s why I want to stay close to nature. When you see me walking down the street, I’m not actually looking for a ride. I’m actually assimilating nature.
[0:44:03.2] KM: Don’t offer him a ride if you see him.
[0:44:05.2] JC: Don’t offer me a ride. I’m going to get where I’m going. On a snow day, I might walk three miles to get here. When all the people can’t, I walk. I’m driven by nature, really. Most people think I’m just being casual about it, but I’m not. I prefer cooking my own organic foods the way I want to eat it.
[0:44:26.3] KM: He is an 80-year-old millennial. After the 60s and 70s revolution, I think many people thought equality for all at last. I know I felt that way. I know LBJ thought that when he tried to create what he called a great society. LBJs quote is as follows, “A great society is to build a great society. A place where the meaning of men’s life matches the marvels of men’s labor.” You are exactly an example of that because you work hard and you’ve had a wonderful life.
Shortly after LBJ passed the 1965 Voting Rights Act, became the era of riots and destructions of property by African-Americans on their own business districts and neighborhoods. You were a young man living during that time. It was a little before my time. Can you tell us how you felt and give us your theory on what happened?
[0:45:18.3] JC: I was scared about — Happening in my town. When remove things, Detroit on fire, it wasn’t as serious but although I’m getting friends returning home because they lost a job, they lost things. They made a reverse migration. The migration of blacks to the large cities went on for about 70 years.
[0:45:49.8] KM: How many years?
[0:45:50.2] JC: 70.
[0:45:51.1] KM: Yeah.
[0:45:52.3] JC: When LBJ implemented that policy and stuff and people didn’t get what they wanted, that’s when the large cities went on fire.
[0:46:04.6] KM: What did they not get that they wanted? I don’t know. I have no idea.
[0:46:08.2] JC: The program wasn’t implemented immediately. Yeah, they made the legislation happened but it was 10 years after before a lot of that stuff was actually implemented in the neighborhoods that they were — In places where they needed to help people.
[0:46:21.9] KM: Really?
[0:46:23.2] JC: Yeah. For instance, in 1962, I saw Gremlin College Football Team on TV. That was a major breakthrough, that marching band.
[0:46:34.7] KM: Is that an African-American school?
[0:46:36.4] JC: Gremlin College.
[0:46:37.1] KM: Oh, okay.
[0:46:39.0] JC: In — What? 1962 and 1975, I was calling a football for Gremlin College on the radio.
[0:46:48.8] KM: Oh my gosh! I am going to rewrite your bio.
[0:46:50.3] JC: I did that about five years. The thing I’m trying to show you is, yeah, he implemented legislation but it took a while and so people like me waiting to see this happen never happened. I was still doing the same things I wanted to do just try thing out on my own.
[0:47:09.4] KM: Were you frustrated?
[0:47:10.8] JC: Yeah.
[0:47:11.5] KM: But you didn’t want to burn your city down.
[0:47:12.9] JC: I never burned a city. Never burned — Never do anything, I did anything that took me on crazy, frustrated marches, no. When ACORN came into being in 1970, I was one of the few people outside of the usual block of on-air people that talked about their programs and stuff. They couldn’t get any help.
The local news, TV news call them that local group. They wouldn’t identify as, “Oh, this is an organization out there.”
[0:47:45.1] KM: I don’t think a lot of people know ACORN. A originally stood for Arkansas.
[0:47:49.7] JC: Yeah.
[0:47:49.9] KM: Yeah, it became a nationwide program started by the same guy that started this radio show.
[0:47:55.5] JC: Yeah. To be doing that was I guess what I was told to be doing as supposed to be out there, out in the street burning building. I went on a few marches in Birmingham.
[0:48:05.4] KM: Acorn wasn’t just about black people. This is just about poor people.
[0:48:08.6] JC: Poor people, marginalized people losing their housing.
[0:48:12.4] KM: Which I guess probably was mostly African-Americans probably.
[0:48:14.9] JC: A good part. Look at what happened in 9th Street, it impacted. Then they moved a lot of the people to the suburbs. That’s where they usually winded up.
[0:48:24.0] KM: Yeah, when I moved down there to 9th Street, I learned from — You probably know him, Milton Crenshaw.
[0:48:30.2] JC: Yeah.
[0:48:31.5] KM: He was the first gentleman to come see me and he was adorable. He had an M and an H on his two front teeth. Remember that?
[0:48:37.5] JC: Mm-hmm.
[0:48:38.6] KM: He took me down and showed me where his building was and where his wife and him had lived and all of that. He said he lost his business when his customers started shopping on Main Street. He said, “I lost all my customers.”
After desegregation, I learned from being down there that the African-Americans getting to shop on Main Street. The white people decided to do white flight and moved out to the suburbs because the African-Americans were shopping on the Main Street. Then the poor black business district just lost all its customers and folded all across America. I don’t think people realized that that’s what happened to most of these African-American black business districts.
[0:49:16.2] JC: I think that was a pushback from LBJ.
[0:49:20.8] KM: I think they were just shopping price.
[0:49:22.7] JC: That too.
[0:49:23.7] KM: Look what Walmart has done to small towns. You come in with good price, this mom & pop cannot compete with Walmart. I don’t think the African-American stores could compete with the white stores.
[0:49:35.3] JC: They couldn’t. No.
[0:49:37.3] KM: On price.
[0:49:38.1] JC: Let me show a thing that went on here. When you Milton, yeah, he was there frustrated. When I come back on the Mosaic Templar’s preservation project, he was one of the first people I went to because I used to patronize his businesses. That’s why I took my clothes every week because of that. Was that weekend thing; take your clothes down, get them cleaned, get your shoe shined.
I tell Milton, I’m going to organize this effort to save this building here. He’s right across the street from there and ask him if he would help. He was so frustrated. He’s out on ahead of time.
[0:50:10.7] KM: Why?
[0:50:12.3] JC: He saw the vision, all the business partners being pushed off the street, so he moved to 15th and Main. I still took my clothes to him and stuff like that, but I never could get him to join the society. He would not join. I think he was burned out by that time about so many ask from different people, things like that. He was a great teacher. He taught not just showing people how to fly airplanes, but he taught at [inaudible 0:50:40.8] college. He went through that thing and it just devastated me. He didn’t want to do any more business. He didn’t want to.
[0:50:50.6] KM: Milton Crenshaw is — I’m mixing my guys. Milton Crenshaw was the airplane pilot.
[0:50:54.4] JC: He’s the airplane guy.
[0:50:55.0] KM: The guy with the M and the H that came to see me was Milton somebody else. I think I have mixed my two people up. Yes, I got to know both of them really well.
[0:51:04.0] JC: Yes, Milton was a good person. Matter of fact, I sat on a board that we formed for his foundation, his air academy thing that Terrence Bolen put together till he died recently.
[0:51:14.9] KM: Oh my gosh! Our time is up. I just noticed. Okay, you have got to come back because I didn’t get to a lot — We didn’t even talk about the mindset of people today and get your wisdom and advice on what we think you and I can do. You’ve got to come back. We’ve got to talk again. You’re here, so I’ll just get you any day. I’m going to rewrite your bio because you don’t have enough. You have done so much stuff.
John, I’ve got a cigar for you. I know, but I left it in the car so I’m going to give it to you after this. I want to thank you. It’s really been an honor, and the cigar came from the Humidor Room at Colonial Wine & Spirit on Markham Street in Little Rock, Arkansas, and the cigar is for birthing a new radio program and genre for your nonprofit; the John Cain Foundation, and for all you do in our community.
Who’s our guest next week, Tim?
[0:52:04.0] TB: Our guest next week is going to be Richard Deutsch of Piano Kraft here in Little Rock.
[0:52:08.7] KM: Oh, he’s a fun, fun guy. If you have a great entrepreneurial story you would like to share, I would love to hear from you. Send a brief bio and your contact info to email@example.com and someone will be in touch.
Finally, to our listeners, thank you for spending time with me. If you think this program has been about you, you’re right, but it’s also been for me. Thank you for letting me fulfill my destiny. My hope today is that you’ve heard or learned something that’s been inspiring or enlightening and that it, whatever it is, will help you up your business, your independence, or your life.
I’m Kerry McCoy, and I’ll see you next time on Up In Your Business. Until then, be brave and keep it up.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:52:51.1] TB: You’ve been listening to Up in Your Business with Kerry McCoy. Want to hear today’s program again or want someone else to benefit from it? Jot this down. Within 48 hours the podcast will be available at flagandbanner.com. Click the tab labeled “Radio Show”, there you’ll find today’s segments with links to resources you heard discussed on this program. Kerry’s goal: to help you live the American Dream.